1980 TA, engine upgrade from 301 to 461 (resurrected)

[5th T/A]

Ryan,

I really didn't have high expectations, I think I would have been happy with a slightly warmed over 400 or 455. I just wanted something with more guts than the standard 150HP 301 my car came with. Power wise I have far exceeded my goal. I had a friend try and time me with his phone to get an idea of 0 - 60 times, but it is impossible to launch from a dead stop. Really any aggressive acceleration below 15 MPH results in crazy wheel spin. My car has a 2.41 axel ratio, I thought I would be upgrading to a 3.08 or 3.23. For now I will not change rear gears. I am running P225/70R15 BFG Radial TA's. I realize there are better tire choices, but want to maintain a stock size and look. High speed roll on power without down shifting is very impressive.

Currently the turbo 350 transmission is not up to the task. It slips shifting into 2nd or 3rd under high power, so I back off allowing it to shift with less of a load. I hope to install a shift kit in the next couple of weeks. I also plan to install a heavy duty center support as this is a weak spot on these. I am looking forward to driving the car, hopefully I can hold off on pulling the transmission for a while.

Drivability is very good, no hesitation or stumbles, idles well. No leaks of any kind. I have driven the car in stop and go traffic, including one 80 degree day and engine temp has not gone over 190, this reading is from the FAST EFI display screen. I still have to charge the AC, so maybe that will make a difference. So far I am happy with the Cold Case radiator.

My only complaint so far is exhaust droning at certain RPM's. I am not done with the exhaust yet, getting this resolved is my next big item. 

[5th T/A]

Moving forward, but not necessarily in a straight line.

This last Tuesday I took the car to a shop that does custom exhaust work. Driving with my abbreviated system as shown earlier, not using the factory cross flow muffler. After looking at the pipes that were supposed to run over the rear axel and connect the muffler the shop agreed there is no way my pipes would fit. They fabricated a new set and did a nice job on the installation. I am running a 1974 SD exhaust system with 2.5 pipes from the RA III manifolds to the muffler. It has provided me with the sound I was looking for and no more drone or booming sounds.

IMG_8039 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr


This system fits up tight against the floor boards and should not have ground clearance problems.

IMG_8070 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

Tuesday afternoon I drove the car home, about 20 miles. Stopped for gas and all was good. Wednesday morning I planned go for a ride, the car would crank, but not start. I got a fault code from my EFI saying the MAP sensor voltage was out of spec. I called EZ EFI, gave them my voltage readings from the sensor and was told to replace the sensor. I removed the throttle body, took it apart and found a split grommet where the sensor plugs into the throttle body. Since the MAP sensor is really measuring vacuum I figured it might just be a bad grommet causing my problem. Cant find just the grommet, so I purchase a new sensor. The MAP sensor is a standard GM/Delco part I could have picket up locally at the auto parts store, but the price was three times what I could find on Amazon. Hopefully I will receive my new MAP sensor Friday.

The throttle body in the center. The piece on the right is a manifold/cover that distributes fuel to the four injectors for the front two barrels. It has to be removed to access the MAP sensor lower left in picture.

IMG_8076 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr


MAP sensor with split grommet. While the fuel injection system is six years old, it only has about 220 miles on it. I feel that maybe the grommet was damaged on assembly.

IMG_8075 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

[Nexus]

All caught up and wow

Makes me excited to go work on my car.

I love the work you did on the fuel lines and as of yet, I haven't decided what I'll do. All rubber or mostly steel. I'm not going for a mostly stock look so I'm leaning towards all rubber. we shall see

[ryeguy2006a]

That throttlebody is a really nice looking piece! I didn't think that there were 8 injectors crammed in there.( 4 on each side)

Nexus, check out my thread and see if Nylon lines will work for you. Very cheap, easy to work with and very flexible.

[MNBob]

I think the 2.41 is perfect for that motor and tranny.  If you are spinning the tires, a 3.23 would only make it worse and give poorer fuel economy and higher rpms. 

It sounds like it is really running well with good power!  Every thing else looks good.  You are always going to have a few tweaks with a new setup and EFI.  Congratulations.

[5th T/A]

I purchased a MAP sensor off Amazon $12.99 for the part and $9.99 for shipping. My wife has an Amazon account and points? So the part didn't cost anything. I installed the new part and the engine started right up with no faults from the ECU, but ran like crap. Initially it didn't want to idle for a few minutes until the EFI compensated?. Throttle response was poor. Going for a ride I had terrible surging at lower RPM. Power was way down.

Since the grommet was torn on the original MAP sensor, I tried the new grommet on my original sensor. The car wouldn't start and was back to getting MAP sensor errors from the ECU. I put the new MAP sensor back in figuring maybe something wasn't installed correctly the first time. The car started right up but still ran poorly.

I spent about a day and a half checking everything with the fuel injection to no avail. I ordered a genuine GM MAP sensor from O'Reilly auto, had it the next day. Installed the sensor and the car ran great immediately. Even my wife who knows nothing about cars said it sounds much better. I am back to very good drivability. For now its all default settings, I have not played with timing or advance curves at all. Max timing is only 30 degrees. In the not too distant future I will call Butler Performance to see what they suggest for ignition settings as I am concerned about detonation with too much advance.

I still have a list of things I want to do, but none I have to do. My AC had a leaking front compressor seal before I replaced the engine. I will replace it before charging, I don't want the oil messing things up. I never cleaned the undercoating off the differential because I thought I would be changing ratios. For now I am very happy with the 2.41. Probably the very next project will be to install a shift kit on my turbo 350.

So far I have about 325 miles on the new engine and enjoying it more every day.

[scarebird]

Excellent work.

[ryeguy2006a]

Excellent job troubleshooting! Glad to hear its up and running again!

[5th T/A]

Its been a while since I updated. This is all very minor compared to what most folks on this forum are doing.

I now have 470 miles on my new engine. Lately I have been spending more time driving rather than finishing up unresolved issues. At 500 miles I plan to do the first oil change.

As mentioned before, with my new engine shift quality from my turbo 350 was poor. I felt like I was doing damage having the transmission upshifting under full power. Back in the 70's I used to always install B&M shift kits, they provided harsh and brutal shifts under power. After researching a little I went with a TransGo 350-1&2 kit and I am very happy. The shifts are firm and the transmission responds well.

IMG_8221 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

I also have been playing with some of the settings on my FAST ECU. Most notably I added about 10 degrees of electronic vacuum advance. While lite throttle response seemed good before, it seems a little snappier now. Drive ability has been good and I am truly enjoying this car.

Today I received a few things ordered from Ames and installed them.

The plastic retainers for the lower half of the urethane bumper cover broke as I removed them, these were only a buck a piece.

IMG_8218 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

My power steering cap was weeping just a little, so I ordered a new one. The replacement cap looks identical, but is gray instead of black. As long as it doesn't leak I don't care.

IMG_8217 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

My windshield washers don't squirt. I found the washer bottle cap tube was cracked and thought this was the problem. While definitely broken it seems the pump is bad. I can hear it engage but there is no suction. Probably a bad diaphragm or check valve.

While I really enjoy driving my TA I am a little worried about some distracted driver plowing into me. I mostly have been driving on rural roads trying to avoid congested areas. This will only be a nice weather cruiser , but I want to drive and enjoy this car. Am I being paranoid? Anybody else feel this way about there Firebird?


IMG_8216 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

[FormTA]

Absolutely! I didn't think I would be this protective of my car. I also won't take it anywhere where it will be parked out of sight for more than a few seconds. I went to get pizza last night with it and was thinking, hurry up guy getting my pizza, I have to get back to my car (even though I could see it. In an almost empty parking lot some lady in an SUV pulled in an Park right next to it... Really? She wasn't even interested in it, just decided she needed to park there... I know, it is going to get were and tear as I drive it and that is what I built it for but part of my soul is in that car.


Oh, and I hear you on unfinished items.  I drive my car whenever I can but many thinks are unfinished.  I have no wipers or motor, none working radio, no wheel fairs, actually one rear is on....  I just love driving it. I really need to get it finished...

[70_71_78]

 Max timing is only 30 degrees. In the not too distant future I will call Butler Performance to see what they suggest for ignition settings as I am concerned about detonation with too much advance.
[/quote]

Look into the J&S Electronics Safeguard device. This may help with your timing issues, allowing better control if detonation is an issue, and better power and fuel economy if/when it is not. I have not used one yet, but when I get that far on any of my projects I intend on doing so.

[Gene-73]

While I really enjoy driving my TA I am a little worried about some distracted driver plowing into me. I mostly have been driving on rural roads trying to avoid congested areas. This will only be a nice weather cruiser , but I want to drive and enjoy this car. Am I being paranoid? Anybody else feel this way about there Firebird?

In the case of my car, it's a Trans Am clone from an Esprit so my reasoning is that it's not a high value car so I shouldn't be worried about damage/theft. But after putting 5 years of work into the car it has a high value to me. So yeah, I'm paranoid also.

[RamblerRacer]

I'm with you on the thoughts of exposure to the elements and more so >>>> the public.
I recently changed jobs and although the commute will be about 3 min shorter, the parking for my area is right on a main drag and exposed rather than gated or out of site.  We'll see and I plan to up the declared value on it should it be lost somehow.

But the thought to keep it and have nicks and other stuff on it is in the back of my mind
Its not even done yet.
Got a bit burned out doing the Camaro, but spent a solid 4 hours in the garage tonight and I'm starting to feel it again.

JT

[5th T/A]

Up until yesterday I had not touched the front end alignment. The car would track straight with my hands off the wheel but the steering wheel was off center by a good 40 degrees. While reinstalling my upper control arms I put all the shims back in their original locations figuring caster and camber would be in the ball park. I did a little research online and decided to use steel fishing line set up as a rectangle to adjust toe-in. I had to build four platforms so my car could be up high enough for me to adjust the tie rods and still have it sitting level with the weight on all four wheels. I spent almost half a day lifting the car. Setting up the steel cable. Taking measurements, adjusting the tie rods. Lots of up and downs, it would have gone much faster if I had an assistant taking the measurements while I stayed under the car. After the first road test my wheel was still slightly off, so I had to go through the process again. It was a time consuming process that would have been much easier if I had access to a real alignment rack.


IMG_8236 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr



The black impact sockets were used as weights to keep the cable taught. I squared up the cables by measuring up against the center of the wheel where the center cap installs, 4" on the fronts and 4 5/8" on the rears, making the distance the same on left and right side of the car. I would then measure the front and rear wheel lip distance to the cable for my toe measurement.

IMG_8234 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr


it doesn't look like it in this picture, but the cable height is the center of the wheel.

IMG_8235 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

[roadking77]

Looks like a pretty nice diy settup. Hope you got it dialed in right.

[b_hill_86]

Funny you post that. My 77 has always pulled to the left gently but to track straight I’d need to turn my wheel slightly (to approximately 2 o’clock). I took the car for an alignment but was told the camber couldn’t be adjusted any further cause there were no shims to remove. I later found out these tend to suffer from a bit of frame sag over time which effectively pull the upper control arm mounts inward. Anyway, last year I replaced my lower control arm bushings, outer tie rod ends and upper and lower ball joints. That all helped but even after another alignment it still pulled left with a cockeyed wheel. This year, I installed offset upper control arm shafts along with new upper bushings, inner tie rod ends and a new center link. I decided to try to address the steering wheel and toe myself as best as I could. I was not nearly as scientific or methodical as you however. I literally locked my steering wheel straight with the column and eyeballed the front tires in relation to the rear. They were noticeably off before I adjusted the tie rod sleeves. My hopefully last alignment is tomorrow so we’ll see but the car tracks nice and straight now. Had I seen your post before I adjusted mine I probably would’ve tried your method.

[Nexus]

Yeah, that's a very intelligent way to do it!

Thank you

I will likely try to do something similar when I get to that point but wouldn't have thought to do it this way!!

[5th T/A]

While I have a few things to take care of on my car the hot humid weather has kept me from doing much. As you may recall I had issues with trying to make my shaker hood scoop fit. I wanted a functional shaker that was attached to the engine and would move around while the engine is running. For me this is an important part of a Trans Am. The fact that my car is not raced and mostly used for relaxed cruising, knowing what I know now I would have used the Pontiac factory cast iron intake manifold and not an aftermarket. My Edlebrock Performer RPM sits 1.25” higher than a Pontiac four barrel manifold. To use this with a shaker hood scoop requires a special drop base air cleaner. It’s my understanding the factory manifold flows very well but can be improved by porting. The factory manifold will keep the shaker at the correct height and you won’t have any carb or transmission linkage issues.

This is the air cleaner my engine came with. It was supposed to provide the correct height for my shaker.  I have to add that this original drop base air cleaner was purchased in 2015 and it's possible a current version may fit better. The problem is I had to purchase a cone shaped air cleaner for the shaker to properly fit. It also required a special retaining ring other than the original. These two items cost an additional $119.00. While the hood would close, the shaker was sitting way to high.

IMG_7969 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr



I recently purchased this air cleaner and am very happy with the fit and shaker height. It is made by PTFB but I purchased from Butler because it was $10.00 less.

IMG_2632 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr


This is a comparison of the original WFO-1 on the left and the EP-401 on the right. Between the lower height of the EP-401 and the additional drop at the carburetor flange, this lowers the shaker 15/16".

Air Filter by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

I want to also mention that my car originally came with a normally aspirated 301 that sits much lower than a Pontiac 400 or 455. This required purchasing a new baseplate from Classic Industries F10193, purchase for $99.99. If your TA came with a 400 or 455 this would not be necessary.

At the top is my original shaker mounted to the new baseplate. At the bottom of the photo is my original 301 baseplate. notice the difference in height and angle. Also the air cleaner base is 14 5/8" on the 301 versus 16" on the 400.

baseplates by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr


Last I want to mention that my FAST EFI throttle body is supposed to be the same height as a Holley 4150 or Quadrajet, but might have complicated things some.

Hopefully anyone thinking about a similar swap can learn some from my headaches.

[NOT A TA]

That's a lot of useful info on the air cleaner for folks making similar engine changes! You will certainly help someone! Unless the site crashes again.....    ahahaha I'm tempted to download it and save it in my computer "just in case" someone needs the info on another forum or something.

[jonathonar89]

Glad you're figuring out that shaker. I remember messing around with those back in '09-'11.  I tried that WFO kit from Butler and it did not fit my '79 T/A at all!  After that, I worked with Dave at PTFB.  He got it better but he really got this new finalized design to fit better a few years after I gave up on these.  Glad he got these things figured out. 


Good stuff!

[TATurbo]

The car looks beautiful. 
I'm learning it takes much longer than I thought it would to get these projects 'dialed in' just the way we want them.
Sounds like you are right on track though,  getting things done one at a time.  It's great that you're finding time to put some miles on it and enjoy all your hard work.
Congrats on the progress...Looks awesome! 

[gkring]

something to check--I notice in your earlier fuel line pictures your rubber hose is SAE 30R7 which is regular fuel line. Not rated for fuel injection. Would be okay for the return line, but make sure your high side supply line is fuel injected rated (30R9).

I feel you on the hood scoop issue. Factory air cleaner is also 2.75 and most aftermarket replacements are 3.0 high which makes the problem worse. I converted to edelbrock proflo and the throttle body is shorter than a carb. Still had to trim, cut, weld, space, angle, etc to get it to fit perfect. I did use this seal on the shaker. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B088SXDTPV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1Not concours correct, but fits very well and no drilling or messy glue required.   

Greg

[5th T/A]

Hi Greg,

I appreciate you keeping me safe on the fuel lines. I think this is the picture you are referring to. On the left is the 3/8" steel fuel return line. The line on the right transitioning from steel to rubber is the 5/16" vent/vapor return coming from the fuel tank and going to the charcoal canister under the hood. It's a vapor only line and not under pressure.

IMG_7879 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr




I am running steel hard lines wrapped in springs under the chassis. Where I had to use flexible rubber hose I used this line supplied by FAST my fuel injection manufacturer (SAEJ30R9).

IMG_8569 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

My original fuel return line was 1/4" My EFI requires a full return fuel system with 3/8" lines for supply and return. I used an inverted double flare on the steel line and adapted that to -6 AN twist-Lok to connect the flexible rubber hose. All is rated to handle in excess of the 40 PSI requirement of my fuel system.

Leaking fuel under pressure is potentially very dangerous, I thank you for looking out for me!

[5th T/A]

So some people might wonder what did I gain by pulling out a perfectly good 301 engine with only 7200 miles and replacing it with a new 461.

Here is my best 0-60 time recorded May 4, 2020 with the original 301. 0-60 in 9.40 seconds.

IMG_6370 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr



This was recorded today September 8, 2021 with my new engine. Wheel spin is my biggest problem. I tried carefully easing into it, once I was rolling pretty good I would still end up with too much wheel spin. My best 0-60 was 4.77 seconds. I feel I could easily cut half a second off if I can get a launch without lighting up the tires. Some time in the future I will play with tire pressure to see if that helps.

IMG_8602 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

Just cruising the car is lots of fun with gobs of torque and a great exhaust sound, but not obnoxious.

[roadking77]

Pretty good upgrade!

[Nexus]

That's a cool comparison!!!

[MNBob]

What an improvement!  Roughly half and that is where a performance car should be.  Just for reference, the magazine published data on a stock 79 400 was 6.5 seconds.

[FormTA]

That is awesome! I think I have finally outgrown the urge to roast the tires from every stop sign/light. I was really feeling guilty after I drove my car as I felt I was beating it to death.  But man is it fun! My car was a 301 as well before the LS swap. It is just soo much fun now! Sounds like you are in the same boat!

[ryeguy2006a]

Nice update!! That 0-60 is very respectable.

[5th T/A]

Thanks guys for the positive response. I am very happy with the performance of my new engine, maybe I could get a little more out of it if I played with fuel mixture and timing. That’s low on the priority list right now. What does bug me is my 2.41 axle ratio; 5600 RPM has me shifting into second at 70 MPH. My speedometer maxes out at 85 and I really have no urge to go any faster. I mostly drive on the backroads of Wisconsin, probably no faster than 60 MPH most the time. I am thinking in the future of switching to a 3.08 or maybe a 3.23. While in high school I had a 65 GTO convertible, it had a 389 but only a two speed automatic. With my current axel ratio I am really only using two gears.

I finally did something with my disgusting looking wheels. They looked OK from 5 feet away but up close looked bad. Most my life I longed for the 15X8” aluminum snowflake wheels that became available in 1978. In 1980 they would have been an option on my car. I am also a fan of the rally II wheels that were more common on early second Gen Firebirds. I decided I like the silver charcoal look over the silver white my car came with, plus the White really shows the dirt while the charcoal does not.


My original wheels had a terrible paint job. Notice the masking on the spokes, lots of runs and sags.
IMG_8629 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr



Lots of labor involved, removing the tire, sanding, priming, silver paint, then masking, charcoal paint and finally mounting the tire on the wheel.

IMG_8622 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr



So far I have just done the two front wheels. The second one turned out better than the first. I just started working on the third now, starting to get good at it.

The second wheel completed. I will mount the center cap in a couple of days when the paint has had more time to dry.

IMG_8623 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr



Old white wheels on the back and newly painted wheel on the front. What wheel do TAC members think looks better? White or Charcoal? Or maybe 15X8” snowflake?

IMG_8625 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

[b_hill_86]

Those look great. I wouldn’t mind white but there’s nothing wrong with the grey either. I repainted my Rally’s probably 10 years ago before I had one of each set of 7 and 8 inch snowflakes. It’s definitely a lot of work but worth it. Your lines look nice and crisp.

I just swapped my rear from a 2.41 to a 3.08 late last year. It was a nice difference. I drive on the highway frequently at 70-75 so I like staying at or under 3k rpm. If you rarely breach 60 a 3.23 would probably suit you well.

[76 - 455 - 4]

Traditional charcoal Rally's by a landslide!
Looks great!

[roadking77]

Larry, you did a fantastic job on those wheels. Up close youre right, those white ones looked pretty bad. I have said before and will say again, that your white with blue decal car is my favorite 2nd gen T/A (coming from someone with a black and a silver car ). Personally, I like the looks of the white rally II's, but the grey looks great. I have a set of rally wheels laying around somewhere that I wanted to restore and paint them black to what they would look like on my car. Just not high on the priority list.

I know what you mean about the rear end gearing. Im in the same boat, just dont have nearly the same amount of HP. But I dont really drive fast either. I have found that with the gearing in the rear and a 3 speed tranny the sweet spot seems to be right around 55-60 mph. Car just kinda glides at that point. THEN it hit me!!! 1977 national speed limit was 55!! I suppose the engineers knew something.

[Jack]

The charcoal looks so much better, you need something to break up the colors. I think body colored wheels look good on red or blue birds but not white.

[5th T/A]

All the work done with my engine swap/EFI/new fuel system/ cleaning the underside didn't make a difference in the car's appearance. Bang for the buck repainting the wheels made a big difference in the car's looks.


This first photo is of when I bought the car. The florescent lights really reflect, for 40 year old original paint it looks good. Although if you lay on the floor and look at the rockers and the lower fenders you can see how bad the quality was in 1980. I get envious of beautiful body and paint work done on the restorations of most TAC members. The body side molding was a dealer add on option. I don't know who put on the front and rear mud flaps, while I understand how they protect I never liked the look. Those were the original Uniroyal tires. They had plenty of tread but were not safe to drive on.

IMG_6041 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr


This is it today with wheels repainted, Radial TA tires, mud flaps removed and body side molding removed. The gray and silver Rally II's were an option and it brings me back to the early Gen II cars.

IMG_8694 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

[76 - 455 - 4]

Looks awesome! Nice work.

[Nexus]

Definitely the charcoal version!!!

Turned out great!!

[5th T/A]

I haven't done any work on my TA, just been enjoying going for rides. Today was a beautiful fall day so I went for a 40 mile ride and played with my performance computer a little. I was able to get my best 0-60 time down from 4.77 seconds to 4.42. I would like to do better and traction is my biggest issue. Any one run P225/70 15 tires that they consider stickier than the BFG radial T/A's?
I want to stick with the stock tire size and prefer white lettering.

IMG_8991 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

[RamblerRacer]

I bought x4 of these for the 79 and am pretty happy with the ride and traction

V rated too.

https://www.performanceplustire.com/tires-for-sale/vitour-tires/galaxy-r1-5/ty:Tire:ts:225-70-15/

The lettering looks offset but it is not on the actual tire

[scarebird]

Anything is better than BFG's concerning traction.

I found these to be superb:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=AltiMAX+RT43&partnum=27TR5AMRT43OWL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

I have had customers tell us that Cooper Cobras beat BFG's hollow.