Author Topic: MNBob's 1979 TATA 5 Speed (Read 24959 times)

MNBob · « **on:** March 24, 2021, 05:52:36 PM »

Restart Of Build Thread
So everyone has to restart their build thread. My previous build details ran from 2012-2020. I am not going to recreate the thread; but rather give a synopsis of the previous activities and go on from there. If you are not interested in anthologies, but only want to see activities with pics, you can skip my first few posts.

The previous thread was called "79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project". The mileage referred to 2011 when I took the car out of storage. It is now up to about 38-39K. I am going to call this one "MNBob's 1979 TATA 5 Speed".

Cruising Around Lake

FormTA · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2021, 06:06:25 PM »

It is too bad, you did such a great job with your detailed posts. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what lies ahead!

MNBob · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2021, 09:49:46 AM »

How I Ended Up With A 1979 TATA (The never before told story.)

It was 1978 and I was a TA at the university teaching Macro Economics 1001 and Micro Economics 1002. I needed a new car and with a limited budget, decided on a Oldsmobile Starfire GT. This was similar to a Chevy Monza. The Starfire was available with a V8 4 speed or a V6 4 speed with air. Since I wanted air, I chose the V6.

This decision turned out to be a huge mistake. The Buick V6 was rated at 105 HP, but it felt more like 50 HP. In addition, the engine with all of its smog equipment, ran rough and was boggy. At the time, there were a lot of people with "I could have had a V8" signs in their cars and I was one of them.

In May of 1979, I started looking for a new car. After the Starfire, I wanted the largest HP available. I quickly zeroed in on a Trans Am or a Z28. After some trips to the dealership, I found out that all TA's with the 220 HP engine and the 4 speed were already sold out. I thought about the Z28 (185HP) because I wanted a manual, but my mind kept going back to memories of friends who had Pontiac V8's and were very happy with them.

I started to look in the newspaper thinking maybe someone who had just purchased one might sell it. After some time, I found one! The seller was a speculator who had purchased the car as an investment and now had decided to sell. He explained to me that it was a special model called a Tenth Anniverary and I knew nothing about it. I went to look at it and it had 42 miles; 48 when I finished my test drive.

He wanted full list for it and I was not about to argue. By this time, I was working as a energy consultant, and could afford it with a loan from the credit union. My father said I was crazy to pay that much for a car, but to this day I am so glad I went for it!

FormTA · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2021, 11:29:59 AM »

Cool story, thanks for sharing it! Sounds like luck was on your side to find one.

5th T/A · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2021, 07:33:11 PM »

Great story, probably very few TATA still in the original owners hands. But I bet there are a lot of previous owners who wished they never sold their TATA.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2021, 07:33:11 PM »

MNBob · « **Reply #5 on:** April 26, 2021, 07:40:29 AM »

Where Am I Going? (No Pics)
It has been 10 years since I took the car out of storage and began working on it. A lot has been accomplished as all systems are working perfectly. It is a lot better car than the day I bought it almost new.

The W72 motor is smooth and responsive. However, by today's standards it is low on power, especially for a heavy car. I have thought about a cam and aluminum heads, but I do not think that is going to get to the power level that I want.

Building a new 455 would could get the power to about 500 HP and 600 ft-lbs. This would also allow me to retire the numbers matching engine at 40,000 miles and yield a spare engine. They even have stroker kits to up the cubes.

I called Butler to inquire about building a motor to my specs (aluminum heads, roller cam, etc) and desired HP. They were responsive and gave me a ball park estimate for what I want. The figure was higher than I expected. In addition, they are a year out on builds so I could only get it in 2022.

After this I began thinking about other solutions and came up with the idea of a crate motor. Big block Chevy's were used in early Camaros and and lot of people have coverted 2nd Gen's to them. Most crate engines come with a warranty as well. I looked around and found these samples which are a lot less money than building a serious 455:

https://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Engines/138/BP4967CT/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19419002/10002/-1

5th T/A · « **Reply #6 on:** April 26, 2021, 03:25:42 PM »

MNBob,

I understand how building a Pontiac is more expensive and harder to get the same power levels of an LS or BBC. One concern I would have is how to make the shaker hood scoop fit and work. You will also spend money on different engine mounts, accessory drive brackets, pulleys, trans adapters and different wiring. The cost of all these items add up and should be factored into the bottom line. You likely already know all of this. Regardless, I am looking forward to hearing more.

MNBob · « **Reply #7 on:** April 27, 2021, 10:00:27 AM »

Thanks for the response, all good points. I have done my homework on this and looked up a lot of information. There are a number of Camaro guys that have installed a BBC in a second gen. I already have a spreadsheet for extras and they total about $3500 with all premium parts (serpentine, ceramic headers, etc.). The total is still less than a full on 455+ build. You were lucky to get your engine like you did as prices have gone much higher in recent years.

The hood scoop is always a consideration. The early Camaro BBC engine mounts are said to be lower and provide more room for header clearance. Also, 68-69 427 Corvettes came with an ultra low profile intake that provided maximum hood clearance. I think there is some wiggle room on the engine mount position so the QJ flange on the intake can be in the same position relative to the firewall.

About the only builder I would trust right now for a build like this is Butler. If anyone knows a capable builder that they have used recently, they can chime in.

There are a lot of Pontiac builds that have ended up being horror stories. Since every Pontiac engine is essentially hand built, there are many opportunities for errors. Things like cams going flat, bearings turned the wrong way, etc. I have read a lot of these threads.

I understand "If you want to play, you have to pay". But what I don't want is paying and having to pay again. It just seems like a crate engine is lower risk solution here.

5th T/A · « **Reply #8 on:** April 27, 2021, 03:45:31 PM »

MNBob, sounds like you definitely have done your homework. I was planning on just doing a warmed over 455 for my car when the opportunity to get an engine built by Butler at a good discount came up. I talked in detail to Scott Gray, for a good half hour. Scott said they have had to redo a lot of engines that were not done correctly. He also told me they were a good year backed up on builds. Scott warned me to be very careful about choosing a good builder. I am sure there are still plenty of capable Pontiac builders out there, but probably nothing like there used to be. I personally believe that a factory built crate engine will give you good bang for your buck with great reliability.

I am not sure there is no wrong choice here, especially if you can keep your original 400. With every day that passes there will be less cars that are 100% original. Especially a TATA.

MNBob · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2021, 11:17:24 AM »

Engine Choice
So I have pretty much decided on the ZZ 502 (see link above). The specs are 508 HP at 5200 rpm and 580 ft-lbs at 3600 rpm. This BBC motor comes with oval port aluminum heads, roller cam, forged rods, forged crank, forged pistons, 4 bolt mains and a one piece rear main seal.

There are BBC's that make more power (even a lot), but this is typically done with higher lifts and pushing the power range up in rpm. For me, this is a street only engine so a milder cam that makes torque is the best. This engine produces over 500 ft-lbs from 2500 to 5000 rpm.

roadking77 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2021, 02:44:30 PM »

Sounds good to me.

5th T/A · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2021, 04:33:23 PM »

Great choice on your engine, should be excellent for street driving. You could pull a house off the foundation with that kind of torque! Any idea what kind of transmission and rear axel ratio you will be running?

MNBob · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2021, 03:19:43 AM »

My extreme TKO that I purchased in 2018 is rated to 950 ft-lbs of torque so no problem there. The ten bolts are said to withstand most power levels except drag racing with slicks. The gearing is perfect now with a 3.23 and the 5 speed cruising at 1900 at 70 mph.

5th T/A · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2021, 05:00:49 AM »

MNBOB,

With a 3.23 axel ratio and a TKO 5 speed you have the best of both worlds. With your new engine should be a very enjoyable combination for cruising or brutal acceleration.

MNBob · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2021, 07:23:26 AM »

Yes, the TKO has a 2.87 first gear and with the 3.23 it is all the starting gear I need or want. Some guys use the TKO with a 3.42 or even 3.73! Good for nothing except burning rubber; especially with a big motor.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2021, 07:23:26 AM »

MNBob · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2021, 06:51:10 AM »

Engine Choice (part 2)
I am very disappointed as the ZZ502 is not currently available. It gets to be this time of year and everyone is doing projects so things go out of stock. I checked at Jegs and a company called Pace Performance out of Ohio. No ETA. I was really set on this engine because it seemed to be very streetable (mild cam, etc) as well as offering HP, torque and value.

I searched again and found a new possible engine from ATK. ATK is a well respected engine builder and has good reviews on the forums. This engine is a 489 with E street aluminum heads, milder roller cam, forged pistons and rods, one piece rear main seal, 4 bolt mains and roller rockers. The numbers are more than the 502 at 565HP and 595TQ. Here is the what I am currently considering:

https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/059/HP411P/10002/-1

roadking77 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2021, 07:40:57 AM »

Its a shame the one you had picked out isnt available, but it looks like the second choice will do the trick as well. If you really had your heart set on the first maybe it will be in by the fall and you can swap over the winter. That way you have a car to drive this summer.

RamblerRacer · « **Reply #17 on:** May 08, 2021, 09:03:28 AM »

What about this here

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19419002

Order today and ships Monday
It looked like you need a core for the ATK unit as well

JT

TATurbo · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2021, 09:45:40 PM »

I'm happy you had to go back and post the history with this car. I think I came around long after your original thread started and I don't recall knowing how you and your TATA met.
Great story.
Good luck with your quest for the right Engine!

MNBob · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2021, 06:10:52 AM »

ZZ502 Ordered!!!!

Thanks, RamblerRacer. I actually discovered this on my own this morning for some reason before I read this. Duh, Jegs and Pace, I don't know why I didn't think of Summit because I order there all the time.

Tom, thanks for the comments.

Now we'll see if an old fart like me can get this job done!

RamblerRacer · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2021, 09:14:35 AM »

Good news!
Did you see my PM?
I’m not sure how you can change the view so you can see the PMs you send.

I get emails when I get PMs, and I hoped you would too, and kept checking myself if they still had two left. Now just say only one. Sweeeeet. Anyway great news you found it and ordered one up.

It looks like a great foundation to build on.
What are your plans for intake, fuel ignition and exhaust?

We can all live a little vicariously through you.
My build would be Performer Plus intake, Holley Sniper controlling spark with it and a decent set of shorty headers, ceramic coated like you mentioned. I see you had the Sniper already in your sig. just have to do the BBC intake and headers I guess.

I’ll post some pictures when I get on my PC as to how I tackled the shaker mounting.

JT

RamblerRacer · « **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2021, 10:03:34 AM »

Here is a picture of the air cleaner assembly I made.
Its a few years old in this picture.
i had to fabricate this because the existing air cleaner would not fit on the FiTech throttle body.
It uses a flat air filter that i believe is from a Pontiac Solstice that I chose because it fit the target size I had in mind.

I don't have any pictures on top that slides over the base on Imgur, but it is apart i the garage and I'll ad them later

5th T/A · « **Reply #22 on:** May 09, 2021, 10:06:35 AM »

MN Bob,

I am very happy you were able to get the ZZ502 ordered, I got the impression this is the engine you really wanted. Being kind of an old fart myself, I have no doubt you will get this done. I can’t wait to watch your progress.

Also really great people like JT were looking out for you. Part of what makes TAC so good.

MNBob · « **Reply #23 on:** May 09, 2021, 01:14:19 PM »

RamblerRacer, I am going to be using the early style BBC 2nd gen Camaro mounts which are said to be the lowest. I am also going to get the ultimate low profile BBC intake ever used, the aluminum spreadbore piece used in 1968-69 427 Corvettes. I don't care if I give up a few HP. My current Holley Sniper QJ is advertised to be good to 500 HP so I will be using that. A HEI will be used at first and I will convert to Hyperspark later. Hedman makes the same type of silver ceramic headers I have now for BBC Camaro.

Quote

I am very happy you were able to get the ZZ502 ordered, I got the impression this is the engine you really wanted. Being kind of an old fart myself, I have no doubt you will get this done. I can’t wait to watch your progress.

I just felt this was the best choice for a street-able engine with power. I think the ATK engine above would also be good. I am 73 now so a lot of those things called years, but still in good condition. So now was the time to act.

ryeguy2006a · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2021, 11:40:02 AM »

Engines with warranties are a really good thing! My Dad went all out on his 496 BBC build because he didn't want to spend that much up front. But because he spread it out, he ended up spending about 1.5x what it cost for a crate motor AND it took him 4 years to finish. Smart move on the crate motor. BBC's make so much torque. Will be a solid upgrade, but won't hurt the value since you have the # Matching engine too.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2021, 11:40:02 AM »

5th T/A · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2021, 04:01:20 PM »

MNBob,

The ZZ502 should be lots of fun while still providing great reliability and drive ability. About the only negative I can think of other than fuel consumption, is frequent rear tire replacement 😂

MNBob · « **Reply #26 on:** May 20, 2021, 01:04:41 PM »

Fan Controller Installation
I want to get a few things done and a little driving the car before I start working on the new engine install. One item on my todo list was to install the new Auto Cool III PWM fan controller. This turned out to be a lot of wiring as it operates in a completely different way than the old system (relays). I also wanted to maintain my under dash fan on indicator light.

So I got it all in but it needed a few tweaks. The controller was letting the fan come on at about 130 degrees and I didn't want that. To stop this, I had to add a relay and trigger it off one of the Sniper fan controls. It now turns on the fan controller on at 175 and off at 160. I also adjusted the controller knob to the warm setting and with that it idles in the driveway at about 170.

The nicest thing about the new controller is the fan never runs at full power (speed) and thus is much quieter. The old way of operation had it come on at full speed and run that way until the engine cooled and then it would shut off.

ZZ502 Delivery
I had some concerns going in about this, but it could not have been better! Summit shipped it with SAIA trucking. They sent me regular email updates on the shipping status. The engine came for delivery on a lift truck and the driver put it on a palette jack and wheeled it into my garage! I didn't have to do anything but tell him where I wanted it!

Auto Cool III Fan Controller Installed

ZZ502 in Crate

5th T/A · « **Reply #27 on:** May 20, 2021, 04:25:41 PM »

Wow, that didn't take long. Merry Christmas seven months early!

roadking77 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 20, 2021, 05:47:09 PM »

C'mon Bob, we all know what a cardboard box looks like...........

That was fast. Now the fun part starts.

MNBob · « **Reply #29 on:** May 22, 2021, 08:06:31 AM »

Yeah, it's the calm before the storm. I have few things to do, parts to order, and then I'll get into it.

5th T/A · « **Reply #30 on:** May 22, 2021, 08:54:16 AM »

Kind of what Kerry said, I would not have your self control and would have at least peeked inside the crate!

MNBob · « **Reply #31 on:** May 25, 2021, 01:20:21 PM »

Weigh In
So today I am going to get the car weighed. A TATA comes fully loaded with all accessories and I have read that they weigh north of 4000 pounds. I have never verified that.

I have worked hard to reduce the weight of this car. The major reductions are the fiberglass springs, aluminum intake, spare tire removal, and the AC compressor delete.

Here is my estimated list:

Item	Original Weight	New Weight	Savings	Weighed
Aluminum Intake Manifold	42	17	25	Yes
Fiberglass Leaf Springs	63	12	51	Yes
Alum. Water Pump	10	5	5	No
Mini Starter	19.4	8.8	10.6	Yes
Blazer Rear Brakes	60	50	10	Yes
No Spare Tire	38	0	38	Yes
No Air Canister	5	0	5	Yes
No jack, wrench	5	0	5	No
Alum. Master Cyl.	9.6	2.6	7	Yes
Alum. Prop. Valve	2	0.6	1.4	Yes
Backdrive Delete	2	0	2	Yes
Aluminum Front Calipers	18.6	11	7.6	Yes
Charcoal Canister	2.2	0	2.2	Yes
Fan, Clutch, Shroud	10.2	8.4	1.8	Yes
Lightweight Batteries	42	38	4	Yes
Crossmember	9.4	7	2.4	Yes
Alum. Driveshaft	15	8	7	Yes
Transmission+Shifter	80	100	-20	No
AC Compressor Del.	45	0	45	Yes
Completed Total			210

ryeguy2006a · « **Reply #32 on:** May 25, 2021, 02:02:16 PM »

Congrats on the new motor Bob! That should make a huge difference on power!

Those PWM fans are really nice. I think that will be one of my next upgrades to my car. I've heard really good things about the C7 and Volt Fans. Does the Sniper ECU have an option for a PWM output? I know that the Terminator and HP/Dominator ECU's have that option.

MNBob · « **Reply #33 on:** May 26, 2021, 05:54:26 AM »

Yes, now all i have to do is get that motor in there! I am going to get the W72 on the dyno before I remove it so I know what it does.

The Mark VIII fan has worked well with the PWM controller. I looked at other PWM controllers before I purchased the Auto Cool III. Some guys are using the PWM controller off Corvettes. That takes a little work though. I looked at the Sniper manual and I don't see a PWM output.

The weight was 3780 pounds! See below:

CAT Certificate

ryeguy2006a · « **Reply #34 on:** May 26, 2021, 10:49:19 AM »

That's great information for the site! I'm curious how much my car weighs.

5th T/A · « **Reply #35 on:** May 26, 2021, 03:39:24 PM »

I agree with Ryan, this is great information. Before I started my 301 to 461 conversion I thought about how I could weigh the old engine and new engine to compare the two. I couldn't come up with a good way to do it. From what I read the 301 should weigh about 150lbs less than a 400 or 455. Like you I did the math figuring a reduction for aluminum intake, aluminum heads, original catalytic converter (its heavy) and light weight gear reduction starter. I figured the new engine would be close, but nothing like using a real scale. Now that its done I wish I would have measured the car height at each of the four wheel openings to compare the difference. I am using all my original springs. Looking at before and after pictures I can't see a difference. Like Ryan I want to get my car weighed. How much fuel did you have when you weighed?

ryeguy2006a · « **Reply #36 on:** May 27, 2021, 06:03:52 AM »

There is a gravel yard up the road from my house and one of these days I want to run over there and see if they would let me drive over the scales. I used to work there in High School so maybe they would let me do that quick if it wasn't too busy.

roadking77 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 27, 2021, 06:36:19 AM »

From spending my share of time behind the wheel of a dump truck, I get ptsd when I think of going through the scales

Im only about 5 miles from I-95, there is an interchange with a CAT scale. I never thought of going there just because. But its an idea. I know the weight of my pickup from my almost weekly trips to the county landfill.

MNBob · « **Reply #38 on:** May 28, 2021, 12:52:55 PM »

Weighing on the CAT scale was easy. I just drove it on the front portion of the platform, pushed a weigh button on the post, and went in and paid $12.50. The fuel tank level was exactly on the 3/4 mark when I weighed. I am going to repeat weigh with the new BBC to see if there is any difference. There were quite a few CAT scales in the Twin Cities area, so I imagine they are everywhere.

In other news, I now have a date on a dyno! I feel it is important I know the RWHP of the W72 because I have always wanted to know and I can compare it with the new engine. The earliest I could get in was June 11th.

roadking77 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 28, 2021, 01:39:37 PM »

Good Deal, also curious to see what the numbers are.

« **Reply #39 on:** May 28, 2021, 01:39:37 PM »

News:

Author Topic: MNBob's 1979 TATA 5 Speed (Read 24959 times)