Author Topic: Transmission opinions wanted  (Read 1978 times)

Nexus

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Transmission opinions wanted
« on: October 12, 2021, 06:37:33 AM »
I just got off the phone with the transmission shop to see what it would cost for them to replace gaskets and go through it and it'll cost me around $500.00 bucks or a full rebuild for $1000.00!!!

Is it that hard to do?

Being very independent, and mechanically inclined and having my pops at my disposal, for that price, I might try and tackle it myself!!

I have a backup transmission if I mess it up which gives a bit more courage to try!

anyone here do it?

I'm just looking at fresh gaskets and seals mostly and to fix the parking lock!!
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(22 years and counting but still have her)
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=79648.0

Fbird

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2021, 08:17:41 AM »
might start off with a big question?

WHAT TRANNY?

With methodical work, time and SPACE, a few special tools, building a th350-400 is not really difficult IF IT IS IN DECENT WORKING CONDITION.
There are alot of pieces in that slush box hence the SPACE so you can lay it out accordingly. Mostly straight forward stuff ..nothing super sneaky about building a solid trans. Resources, advice, humble questions and patience are enough to make it happen.
67 Firebird
1981 Turbo TA (injected 400 now :) )

ryeguy2006a

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2021, 08:58:52 AM »
I'd try it to be honest. I replaced the tailshaft on my TR6060 which meant disassembling the entire trans. Just did my homework and it went pretty smoothly. Keep us posted! WE believe in you!

1976 Trans Am LS1 and much more...SOLD
1968 Camaro LSA, T56 Magnum, and much more...SOLD

Current Project: 1955 Nomad LC9, 4L80e, C5 brakes and etc...

firebirdparts

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2021, 10:24:06 AM »
It's about as hard as anything mechanical in my opinion, but the shop manuals did cover it with detailed instructions in case you forget which way a part goes, it will be in there.  Not sure which transmission you have, but I've overhauled both back when you could get parts just for the asking at the parts store.  I used to get rebuild kits from ATP automotive at the store.   Looks like they're still big in that and I'm sure you could still get a good overhaul kit on the internet.  There are a lot of bushings in an automatic which will probably still be good.  To be honest, TH350's are pretty much scrap material nowadays, so there's nothing there among the hard parts that's going to cost you any real money to replace if you need something.

I never did buy any special tools.  Where you need a "special" spring compressor I just used my thumbs and c-clamps and a few blocks and got through it.

I just did it to see if I could, on the automatics.  On a manual, you kinda have to work on them.  Nobody does it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 10:29:59 AM by firebirdparts »
I want to be like Paul Kenny when I grow up
Joe Bays
1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

firebirdparts

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2021, 10:33:49 AM »
Just for fun I pulled up a TH400 kit and this the price you are talking about, a full overhaul without the pump and without a converter, which it sounds like you wouldn't want to do.  $139 measly bucks.
https://www.amazon.com/ATP-JMS-9-Automatic-Transmission-Master/dp/B000C8RAV2
I want to be like Paul Kenny when I grow up
Joe Bays
1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2021, 10:33:49 AM »

5th T/A

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2021, 01:25:35 PM »
Charlie,

Here are some tips on rebuilding your transmission. Forty five years ago I was really good at this, but then changed careers and got into the computer industry. I haven’t rebuilt one of these since the late 70’s. Anymore I have a hard time remembering what I ate for lunch yesterday. So take my advice for what it’s worth nothing. Honestly like anything else if you do you research and take your time you can do it.

In the early 70’s while in high school I went to work in a transmission shop part time in what was called a work study program. I got straight A’s in my shop courses and thought I knew something about cars. My first day on the job was a real eye opener as to how ignorant I really was. It probably took me three hours to remove a cast iron Powerglide from an early sixties Chevy. Like anything practice makes perfect. Years later one of my coworkers timed me pulling a transmission out of a Chevy Nova. With the car up on stands and all of my tools ready I had the transmission on the ground in 12 minutes.

Eventually one of the owners started teaching me how to rebuild automatics. It got to the point where lesser skilled guys would perform the removal and replacement I would do the bench work or actual rebuilding. On a good day I could rebuild several transmissions a day.

Most the time except in catastrophic cases the hard parts such as planetary gears sets, clutch drums and thrust washers do not fail. On an automatic all the gears are constantly in mesh. Different ratios are obtained by locking a ring gear or sun gear with clutches or bands. So rarely do you have damaged gears like you might in a manual transmission. With heat and age rubber lip seals on pistons fail applying less pressure to the clutch packs. The clutch disks (very similar to a motor cycle clutch) are made up of alternating friction and steel plates. If the clutches slip enough you will have steel on steel and eventual metal fragment contamination throughout the transmission. Assuming your transmission is just tired a rebuild is fairly straightforward. But you really won’t know until you tear it apart.

If you do your research, get good manuals and take your time you can do this. Disassembly is somewhat messy. I would suggest using a metal top work bench if possible. A window squeegee and roaster pan on the floor to swipe the oil into. You can use a small air ratchet or battery impact for disassembly but all reassembly should be done with a speed wrench by hand. Since the case is aluminum you have to be extra careful not to overtighten and strip the case. I recommend an inch pound torque wrench tightening to spec. As you disassemble you want to lay out all the parts in the sequence you remove them. Use small trays or pie tins for the little parts.

Start by laying the transmission on its side. Take as many pictures as you can on disassembly.  Remove the oil pan, filter, vacuum modulator and valve. Remove the kick down cable if you haven’t already, especially paying attention to how it is connected to the valve body. Turn the transmission so it is laying pan up. There is a metal plate towards the front of the transmission that is held in place with approximately 6 bolts, do not remove them yet.  Remove the valve body bolts, something like 16 – 18 bolts.  Pay attention to how the spring and roller is installed for the manual valve (gear selector). Next you will remove the support plate near the front of the transmission. The plate should come right off after you remove the bolts. It holds a steel separator plate that will probably be stuck to the case. There are four metal check balls under the plate. You need to remember where the balls were installed, take pictures. If the Trans is not laying pan side facing up these balls may fall out and get lost. Towards the front of the case there will be a small kind of thimble shaped screen, take a picture and remove the screen. There is also a servo piston that drives the intermediate band that has to be removed. Take pictures of the components, piston, washer, pin, cup and spring so you reinstall in the correct order. You will likely spend a lot of time cleaning the gaskets from the separator plate, case and valve body. Be careful when cleaning the case as the aluminum is soft. Unless there are metal particles in the valve body you will not have to disassemble it. Clean with mineral spirits and use a small flat blade screwdriver to make sure all valves are free.
Next I would remove the speedometer drive and four bolts for the extension housing. Then remove the governor cover that is held on with a spring clip. You will need a large flat blade screwdriver and hammer working around the edge of the governor cover driving it out. The governor will pull right out. On the output shaft there will be a speedometer drive gear, I believe held in with a metal clip. The gear will have to be removed before you can remove the output shaft.
Now you can start removing the guts, starting with the front pump. Remove the pump retaining bolts, eight bolts if I remember right. You will need a slide hammer to remove the pump. While the pump is held in with 5/16” bolts, the housing has several holes threaded for a slide hammer. I think 3/8” X 16. You can make a slide hammer with threaded rod, heavy washers and a large deep well socket. You will probably have to give a couple pulls on one side of the pump and then switch to the other, working side to side it will come out pretty easily. Once you have the pump out you can split it in two. Look at both the driven and drive gears where they rub against the pump body. They should be smooth with no grooves. Look at the inside of the crescent of the front body. There should be little wear and you should be able to drag your finger nail against it without getting caught. You should replace the bushing where the torque converter rides on the front part of the pump body, right behind the front lip seal. If the bushing is worn and not replaced, the new front seal will not last.

Also you should replace the bushing in the extension housing at the back of the transmission. These always wear out. People replace the leaking rear seal and not the bushing; a new seal won’t last if the bushing is worn.
The back of the pump houses a piston for the intermediate clutches. You will have to remove five bolts that hold a retainer with spring pressure. Once the retainer is off you can remove the piston. All parts should be cleaned with “clean” mineral spirits and blown dry. Cleanliness is essential during assembly. Install new lip seals on to piston. Coat with lightly with lithium grease. When reassembling you may have to use a feeler gage to help slide in the piston. Be very careful not to pinch the seals.
You will have to go through a similar process with the forward clutch drum and the low reverse clutch pack housed in the rear of the case. For these two clutch packs you need a way to compress the retainer and a snap ring plier. A small arbor press works well for the direct clutch. For the low and reverse clutch you will have to fashion something using a threaded rod and collars allowing you to compress the springs. Several types of snap ring pliers, spring hooks or cottar pin pullers might help.
During disassembly, when you get to the center support. It is held in with a snap ring. But there is also a horse shoe shaped spring the holds it in. It’s very easy to overlook and you need to note where and how it is installed.
The case should be thoroughly cleaned inside and out before reassembly. A small amount of dirt can cause valves to hang. Parts should be lubed with transmission fluid. Friction clutch plates should be soaked in transmission fluid. Use a little lithium grease on thrust washers. To reassemble the case should be standing on the rear end with tail housing removed. You should have a hole cut in the bench large enough for the tail shaft to fit through. You drop the assemblies through the front using gravity to hold things together. Turn the shafts, drums, etc back and forth allowing the parts to seat. Once the front pump is bolted on you can install the valve body, pan, tail shaft, governor.
When installing the torque converter you should hear three clunks while turning it back and forth while applying slight pressure. If the torque converter is not completely installed it will put pressure on the pump drive gear and destroy the transmission. The converter can easily slide forward should the front of the transmission pitch down during installation. Once the transmission is bolted to the engine you will have to pull the torque converter forward slightly against the flex plate as you tighten the converter bolts. This tells you the converter was installed correctly. Make sure the converter bolts are tight, roughly 30 foot pounds. Put about four quarts of fluid in the transmission before starting the engine. Then add fluid but do not overfill. You can run through the gears while the car is in the air making sure it shifts, put a slight drag on the brakes while doing this. Once the car is on level ground and hot recheck the fluid level.
1980 T/A with a Pontiac 461

Gone but not forgotten;
1973 T/A 455
1975 T/A 400
1978 T/A W72
1982 T/A cross fire injected

Two wheel toys;
2014 Harley Ultra Classic Limited
2013 Honda CB1100
2010 Yamaha Vmax
1982 Yamaha Seca 750

5th T/A

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2021, 03:58:29 PM »
Charlie,

I just "assumed" you were asking about a turbo 350 since that's what I saw on the back of your engine when you pulled it out of your car. Pontiac stopped using turbo 400's on second generation F body cars in 1974 and only on 400 and 455 CI engines. Working on a turbo 400 isn't that different, its actually a little easier.

Also I never saw your request on transam country but recently saw it on 301 garage. I tried to join 301 garage about 18 months ago but never got a response back from them. Not being a member I couldn't post a reply.
1980 T/A with a Pontiac 461

Gone but not forgotten;
1973 T/A 455
1975 T/A 400
1978 T/A W72
1982 T/A cross fire injected

Two wheel toys;
2014 Harley Ultra Classic Limited
2013 Honda CB1100
2010 Yamaha Vmax
1982 Yamaha Seca 750

Nexus

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2021, 07:35:33 PM »
This is awesome, thank you

Sadly I'm not sure why I didn't recieve a notificatin that you had replied to thread though!!
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(22 years and counting but still have her)
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=79648.0

tiggershark

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2021, 09:19:53 AM »
My TH350 leaked like crazy even after a rebuild. Brought it to a different trans shop for some gaskets replacement. He did a few gaskets but my headers/exhaust was in the way to get at the round "actuator/accumulator thing" The round thing. He didnt charge me much so I went with it. No change in leaks. I found the vacuum module line needed replacing so I bought a new unit with the new O-ring and vacuum hose. Replaced that and it still leaked. Well after a few weeks it leaked less and less. Since the entire trans was covered with trans fluid, it took awhile to "drain" Now it leaks very little. I can live with it now. The O-ring was deformed. Strange that the module is at the rear of the trans but the whole unit was covered from front to back with fluid. Leaked even more when it wasnt used for a few weeks. The dipstick O-ring is another fairly easy job. If you do those 2 things you may see results as they are common leak spots. It too bad you cant pressurize the unit to find leaks. 

sreta

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2021, 02:44:29 AM »
Can anyone recommend a good rebuild kit for th350 ?

Nexus

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2021, 07:32:23 AM »
I got mine from Rockauto and it was the "Master Rebuild kit"...cost was about $200.00 canadian

It looks fairly complete but to be fair, I havent opened it up other than to look at the shiny new parts
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(22 years and counting but still have her)
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=79648.0

firebirdparts

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2021, 08:15:31 AM »
Already posted, but I had always used "ATP" which stood for automatic transmission parts.  They still make 'em.
https://atpautomotive.com/

Note that they offer kits with and without the clutches.  Be careful there.

I did not ever replace the bushings on the ones I rebuilt, but they are available if you see one that looks bad.  In my limited experience, there is a thrust bearing in there that might wear out.  Babbitt.  You can get all this stuff if you need it. If you buy all the bushings anyway, they're pretty cheap.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2021, 08:22:17 AM by firebirdparts »
I want to be like Paul Kenny when I grow up
Joe Bays
1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

5th T/A

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2021, 08:57:50 AM »
Like Firebirdparts I used ATP kits. Their headquarters was in the next town to the transmission shop where I worked. One of the owners of the trans shop was good friends with the CEO and founder of ATP. They were both pilots and I was going for my pilot's license at the time. Several times I went flying with the owner. His name was Sam Rogak, a very smart and hardworking man. He passed away in the late 90's. I believe the company was sold after that. I think one of his sons was and still might be an executive with the company.

Also like firebirdparts mentioned there are different levels of kits. Clutches and lip seals absolutely must be replaced. You should also replace the front pump bushing where the torque converter rides and the extension housing bushing that the drive shaft plugs into. These are cheap parts. Sometimes people replace the front and rear seal without the bushings. With a worn bushing the seal won't last long and you will have to pull the transmission back out to replace the bushing and seal. The mating surface on the torque converter where the seal rides should be smooth. Same for the yolk on the drive shaft. If just a little wear on these surfaces you can clean up with 400 and 600 grit sandpaper.
1980 T/A with a Pontiac 461

Gone but not forgotten;
1973 T/A 455
1975 T/A 400
1978 T/A W72
1982 T/A cross fire injected

Two wheel toys;
2014 Harley Ultra Classic Limited
2013 Honda CB1100
2010 Yamaha Vmax
1982 Yamaha Seca 750

tiggershark

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2021, 09:19:32 AM »
You tube can be very helpful with your project.

roadking77

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2021, 07:30:38 PM »
Im not afraid of a lot of things mechanical, figure I wont learn any younger but WoW, I dont think I would ever attempt a trans rebuild. More power to you if you do. And Larry, I have to say I am super impressed. Doing that kind of stuff is like magic to me!!

FWIW, there is a very reputable transmission shop in my area and the going rate is about $800-$1000 for a standard rebuild. So I dont think the price you got is out of line.

My problem in doing something like that myself is my A.D.D.  I have a hard time finishing something once I get it started (paid jobs excluded). If I could tear it down, and put back together over the coarse of a few days I would be fine. But I can see taking it apart and laying on the bench for 6 months.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2021, 07:30:38 PM »

Nexus

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2021, 11:33:46 AM »
Well track record shows for me that I can take it apart and leave it that way for a long time but with htis, I will spend conzecutive days doing it as well as I plan to record the process so that I can reference back to it if I forget something. At least that's the plan now anyway and I've been watching youtube videos as well and the one guy I watched few times now seems to know what he's doing. A little rough on the parts in my mind but there is no question that he knows where things go. I can't remember his name but if I rember, I'll get a link for peopel to watch.
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(22 years and counting but still have her)
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=79648.0

wheels78ta

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2021, 02:57:49 PM »
Rebuilding a transmission is not hard to do.  It is mostly time consuming if you have never done one.  There are videos and manuals for each type of transmission.

I've rebuilt two 700R4s and one 4l80E.  There are some special tools you will need but nothing drastic.  One tool I needed is called a "Lip Seal Tool".  It has a looped wire at each end and is used to help put the pistons back into the clutch drums.  You can make one or buy it for $10.  Most special tools can be made from things laying around in the garage.

I removed and disassembled a transmission in one day.  Had everything laid out and then took about a week to complete the rebuild because I was working a full time job.  If I had the time I could have rebuilt it in 2 days.  I followed the manual and video.  And took lots of pics.

You can do this. 
Willie

1978 Gold Y88 4 spd W72 WS6 project
1987 K5 Blazer---The Crawler
2006 Chevy Silverado Z71----Hers
2005 Chevy Suburban 2500---The Hauler

Nexus

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Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2021, 08:53:20 PM »
Thanks for all the morale support everyone

Much appreciate it.

the goal is to have the engine and transmision sitting back in the cradle by spring.
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(22 years and counting but still have her)
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=79648.0

Re: Transmission opinions wanted
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2021, 08:53:20 PM »
You can help support TAC!