Author Topic: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403  (Read 2623 times)

b_hill_86

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Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« on: June 17, 2024, 09:22:39 AM »
Anyone with a 400 powered car care to measure the depth of their fan shroud? Say, inside the shroud from the face of the radiator to the edge. My 400 powered 77 has had a 403 shroud on it since I’ve owned it. I’ve never changed it since it works but I do have a bit of warming at idle with the AC on. I’ve hit all of my other obvious points to try and since the factory felt the need for two different shrouds I thought there may be a valid reason such as fan depth relative to the shroud.

On a related note, I know Ben will know this or anyone else that does can chime in but didn’t AC cars get extra seals of some sort around the hood and cowl area? If so for what purpose?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 09:24:36 AM by b_hill_86 »
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2024, 09:44:12 AM »
The extra seals were 79-81 models, to aid with cooling due to the revised grille locations. It may also have helped earlier nose shapes but not not to the same extent, to funnel excess air through the radiator rather than over it.

It was only listed as being used for the 265, 301, 400 and 403 when also had A/C. Not sure why Chev and V6 were not affected.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 12:03:51 AM by Wallington »

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2024, 10:31:25 AM »
Thanks, I knew you’d know. I was thinking it was earlier models too. That’s ok if not though, less for me to track down and install lol
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

nUcLeArEnVoY

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2024, 03:04:34 PM »
The extra seals were 79-81 models, to aid with cooling due to the revised grille locations. It may also have helped earlier nose shapes but not not to the same extent, to funnel excess air through the radiator rather than over it.
The wording is vague so original owners may know more. But it was installed with vehicles with A/C, and possibly certain engines without, which in most cases still covered most vehicles, perhaps non-AC chev and V6 excluded. It was not 403 specific for 79. But an easy way to spot 79-81 hoods compared to 77-78 is the forward seal holes added.

What seals are you referring to? Just trying to make sure I have them equipped on my car.
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop


Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2024, 04:40:42 PM »

5th T/A

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2024, 07:55:23 PM »
The extra seals were 79-81 models, to aid with cooling due to the revised grille locations. It may also have helped earlier nose shapes but not not to the same extent, to funnel excess air through the radiator rather than over it.
The wording is vague so original owners may know more. But it was installed with vehicles with A/C, and possibly certain engines without, which in most cases still covered most vehicles, perhaps non-AC chev and V6 excluded. It was not 403 specific for 79. But an easy way to spot 79-81 hoods compared to 77-78 is the forward seal holes added.

What seals are you referring to? Just trying to make sure I have them equipped on my car.

Ben and Nuclear, are these the seal you are talking about.

IMG_3602 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

IMG_3603 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr
1980 T/A with a Pontiac 461

Gone but not forgotten;
1973 T/A 455
1975 T/A 400
1978 T/A W72
1982 T/A cross fire injected

Two wheel toys;
2014 Harley Ultra Classic Limited
2013 Honda CB1100
2010 Yamaha Vmax
1982 Yamaha Seca 750

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2024, 11:46:55 PM »
Yes, front hood seal onto radiator support. Naturally, FBW has wrong details listed.

Found a further listing for 79 that states 301, 400 and 403 engines with A/C. The details for 80-81 can be deciphered differently as the engines application is listed along with the A/C, rather than combining them, which is more likely the case. 80-81 also only list 265 and 301 engines with A/C.

Also suits 1980 models with 461...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 12:04:40 AM by Wallington »

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2024, 05:23:07 AM »
Sounds like from what I found elsewhere the cowl seal might actually be 77+?
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2024, 05:50:27 AM »
#10014544 front hood seal introduced as a part for 79 model. Renumbered to #10008650. After 1979 pre-cut lengths and assigned part numbers went back to stock roll of the seal with retainer pin holes, same as the hood rear and cowl corner seals did. 1977-78 hoods did not have the holes for the seals, replacement spares for all 77-81 hoods after 79 did as part of revision.
I'm aware that 99% of online sellers and ads quoting each other refer to 77-81.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 07:08:41 AM by Wallington »

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2024, 09:17:28 AM »
Interesting. I’ll have to look again but I believe my 77 hood does have holes. I’d talked to someone with a 78 that bought it around 80 I think and his has the rear seal installed. That’s why I was confused. Who knows after 40+ years though I guess.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2024, 09:32:37 AM »
They all had the rear seals, not the front. The 70-76 rear seal is the moulded 1-piece. 77-81 used the 3-piece cut from the roll. It keeps the engine heat out of the cabin, cowl opening.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 09:39:44 AM by Wallington »

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2024, 12:34:27 PM »
Ok that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

nUcLeArEnVoY

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2024, 05:11:42 PM »
I need to check to see if my hood has that front seal. Pretty sure it does, but I can't recall. Can't do it on a whim, since I keep my car at a storage unit so I'll check tomorrow. I know it has the cowl seals because I have photos showing them.

Also, Brian, when I put in my Cold Case radiator, which is at least as thick as the stock HD cooling copper/brass rad, there was still a slight gap between the radiator and the fan shroud, and my fan shroud is the correct one for my 400 engine. This tells me that there was probably a slight gap there even from the factory. Still, I sealed it up with some generic weatherstripping to fill up the space, but it's more of a satisfaction thing since I don't think it's made any profound difference in cooling at idle or low speeds.

You and I have the same issue. My car will run at or even below thermostat temp (I use a 160) till' the cows come home at idle or driving around without AC, but if I turn the AC on, the temp starts to climb, especially at idle. I've never let it get too high to see how high it will go, but it does heat up relatively quickly. I wouldn't mind it so much if I could actually see it stop increasing temp, even if it it's at 190 or 200, but it just continues to climb even past those numbers.  I'm starting to think it's more just inefficiency with the compressor, insufficient charge, worn out AC components (compressor is new and system is converted to R134a; but the evap core and condenser are still original), or the compressor overstressing the engine maybe because it's binding or something. It's a newer A6 compressor but not a particularly high quality one - probably some cheapo reman. Also, Florida will put any AC and cooling system to the test - on a hot day, my compressor just stays running and running, I've never let it go long enough to see it eventually equalize pressure and exchange the heat out of the cabin in order to cycle off (if it can even do that on a hot day), because by then I feel the engine temp will be ridiculously high, so I don't risk it. As for the AC performance, it does blow cold - not freezing cold, but it does *work,* and like you it works better at speed vs. at idle. Is your AC idle solenoid working, too? You need to compensate for the compressor load on the engine, or else that reduced idle and increased engine load will add heat to the engine for sure.

I did notice that if I try to accelerate hard with the AC on, the car bogs and falls flat on its face a lot more easily than the occasional Quadrabog we are used to with Q-Jet carbs. I'm starting to wonder if the heavy duty fan clutch is playing a small role in this, as it puts more of a strain on the engine, and combined with the compressor it is really stressing the motor. Even AC cars from the factory didn't come with a heavy duty clutch, they just came with the standard duty which is a lot gentler on the belt drive.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 05:14:07 PM by nUcLeArEnVoY »
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2024, 08:05:01 PM »
I had a guy I know with a 400 powered 78 measure his fan shroud and it’s definitely deeper than my 403 shroud so I believe part of my issue is my setup not pulling enough air across the condenser/radiator at idle. I’ll have to get a correct shroud and see if that makes a difference.

I did do a test today where I heat soaked the engine with a drive, parked and measured vent temps at idle. I then misted the condenser and my vent temp fell several degrees which, from what I’ve read, is some indication that airflow is poor. Must be just bad enough on a heat stressed engine. As mentioned, no AC on, doesn’t matter the ambient temp. I’m 180° or less.

I’m not sure the cause of the highway “overheating” though. I kind of wonder if that may not be timing related it again, only happens with AC on

Can anyone with a factory AC car tell me if there is a gap between the condenser/core support/radiator? Mine does have a gap at the bottom I believe and possibly at the sides. I have to look again.

I should also mention that I believe my charge to be close since today, at 85ish degrees, I tested my vent temps again and got a 40+ degree drop from ambient temp. I’m debating going to a shop to pay the $70 to at least have my refrigerant evacuated to know the exact amount that’s in there and then try to recharge it myself. I hate the idea of making changes to the refrigerant level without knowing where I am now considering be believe I’m close to where I need to be.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 08:08:22 PM by b_hill_86 »
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2024, 09:45:07 PM »
You'll have to check these details, I'm not home and may be telling stories. Check your fan diameter on the 400. I think they were smaller than the 403. Like 18" or 18.5" HD compared to the 19" and 19.5" HD on the 403. This may or may not have slight affect on the draw through affect inside a larger shroud opening, or a size more suited. No idea of the opening sizes. In theory you could swap a larger fan or more HD even from another GM model that shared similar clutch fan bolt spacing. Or try a HD clutch if not already.

Just measured it, 21.5" for 403 shroud opening, since I was there.

Another AC only part was the lower radiator support baffle, even on TA. But seems hit and miss how many had these installed years later. I remember the late NotaTA once posted about a custom extended version being tested but it was also designed to suit altered front spoiler etc.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 03:53:52 AM by Wallington »

Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2024, 09:45:07 PM »

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2024, 09:02:44 AM »
I bought this 7 blade fan a few years ago to replace a 5 blade that was on it. Back when I started the AC project. I’ll have to measure it to verify the diameter cause I forget. From the parts manual though I think you’re right in diameter. I’m glad you mentioned it though.

I’ve never heard of that baffle but I’ll look into it. Thanks for measuring your shroud. From what I’ve read in the past, fan placement within the shroud is more critical than one would think. Hopefully that’s part of my issue at idle. At speed, I must have an airflow issue of some sort.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

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b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2024, 09:29:44 AM »
O ok, I do not have that installed. I also removed my fan and measured it. It’s a 7 blade approximately 19.5”. Makes me wonder now if it will be too large to fit in a 400 shroud.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 09:46:51 AM by b_hill_86 »
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

nUcLeArEnVoY

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2024, 10:02:35 AM »
^^^I was under the impression that only non-T/A's had that baffle, and that for T/A's, the chin spoiler instead served that purpose...

Dud 1979 Trans Ams come with this baffle? Any low mileage originals I have seen don't include it. I know that 79-81 Firebirds/Esprits/Formulas had the baffle, though.
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2024, 11:11:41 AM »
Low mileage 79 TATA (edit....no spoiler, likely a Formula and saved by error)

79 TATA 400 original low miles (1) radiator support deflector spoiler hood cable by Ben, on Flickr
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 10:52:45 PM by Wallington »

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2024, 11:42:46 AM »
Ooo, that’s a good picture. Thank you. Doubt I’ll find one. Maybe I can make something similar.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

5th T/A

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2024, 02:10:42 PM »
^^^I was under the impression that only non-T/A's had that baffle, and that for T/A's, the chin spoiler instead served that purpose...

Dud 1979 Trans Ams come with this baffle? Any low mileage originals I have seen don't include it. I know that 79-81 Firebirds/Esprits/Formulas had the baffle, though.

Here are a couple of photos from my 1980 TA, originally with a NA 301 engine. Build date was 9/1979. This was a 6600-mile car when I got it, I assume this is how it was built.

Looking at where the TA spoiler sits, I don't see how the baffle under the core support would do a whole lot? Ben's photo of a 79 TATA definitely contradicts that. So maybe they no longer bothered with it on the 1980 cars with smaller and lower horsepower engines.

IMG_3612 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr

IMG_3613 by Lawrence Alexander, on Flickr
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 02:29:59 PM by 5th T/A »
1980 T/A with a Pontiac 461

Gone but not forgotten;
1973 T/A 455
1975 T/A 400
1978 T/A W72
1982 T/A cross fire injected

Two wheel toys;
2014 Harley Ultra Classic Limited
2013 Honda CB1100
2010 Yamaha Vmax
1982 Yamaha Seca 750

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2024, 04:40:52 PM »
Yeah when I posted the TATA I wondered why it had no front spoiler and where it would even fit. As can be seen it has basically become part of it.

nUcLeArEnVoY

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2024, 10:04:48 PM »
Ooo, that’s a good picture. Thank you. Doubt I’ll find one. Maybe I can make something similar.

They occasionally turn up on eBay. I've searched for them in the past since I thought it was a missing part from my car, but then I was led to believe they didn't come on Trans Ams. Ben's post may prove that I was originally right all along...

Ben, where did you find that photo of the TATA? Is it from a page showing other photos proving it's a TATA? Is it possible that's a Formula? They could be had with the darker silver two-tone on the lower bumper like TATA's.

If anything that baffle would help more with at-speed cooling vs. at idle.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 10:09:57 PM by nUcLeArEnVoY »
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2024, 12:37:21 AM »
It was someone who had posted online, I only saved the detail pics of engine and chassis but was a low-mile original. I mainly saved it for the hood pull cable shot, didn't even notice missing spoiler.

#546862 is the baffle, I think it was 74-81 with A/C but doesn't come up much in references. I have diagrams somewhere, will see what I can find even if doesn't apply here.

Good pics showing the yellow undersides. Beautiful condition. I'm not familiar with any of that or how it mounts up. Would the baffle even fit in front of the radiator support by accident, and then spoiler base fit over it? It uses different mounting points. I think the baffle was added by Fisher, maybe, but the spoiler was already off as not delivered, who knows. The 79 I posted has the fenders only just visible and no sign of flares so perhaps you are right. It's a 79, we know the much! I have several other saved pics of similar TA but only show the spoiler so far. I may have misnamed it when saved.

Oh wait, baffle goes on rear of the support I think, you can see it not there and the spoiler seals the bottom at that point anyway so would do nothing on this type, where earlier years still had openings further back on TA.

Found one diagram showing general 76-78, no details, while the 79-81 version of same on next page does not show it. Yet we know it was used on at least regular models. May even be on buildsheet, think it says baffle somewhere obscure. And was it just AC or AC with HD cooling too?

Random trivia, my 78-81 repair manual lists #546862 as being $23.35 to replace. No, I wasn't that amazed either! Do you guys end up with all these weird manuals and documents as well? But never be able to find where the info cames from when you say you have seen it?!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 01:53:38 AM by Wallington »

Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2024, 12:37:21 AM »

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2024, 01:18:08 AM »
Found another! I have so many saved pics but need to use right keyword to locate any of use.

79TA 301 with spoiler AND deflector! Not Baffle. That's why I've saved it, it had both!

So...is there even any openings on the rear of the spoiler lip where it bolts up? Anywhere any air could go under pressure?!

79TA 301 with air deflector and spoiler by Ben, on Flickr

But not on this one also claiming to be original, as they always are! Also looks like every second bolt and retainer is missing...

https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/ab/1/1020/41870/1920x1440/1979-pontiac-firebird-trans-am

A restored 75 TA but also shows more openings to use.

https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/volo/1/20997/904733/1920x1440/1975-pontiac-trans-am
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 01:34:13 AM by Wallington »

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2024, 02:54:54 AM »
While I'm rambling and ruining Brian's post, here's some intriguing trivia.

1976 Parts Application listing.
All 6cyl and 8cyl Firebirds with C60 (A/C) fitted with the deflector/baffle, as well as all WS4 (Trans Am) with W52 (Japanese Export)

So basically, the Jap TA's had no spoilers anyway,  but while A/C cars had the baffle, so did their non-A/C cars. Remember that next time you restore a W52.

nUcLeArEnVoY

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2024, 04:48:16 AM »
This is interesting. I really don't even understand what purpose that baffle even serves for a T/A, especially the 79-81's since the front chin spoiler pretty much blocks it completely as far as ram air is concerned.
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2024, 05:17:29 AM »
Ya, possibly just a rushing production line used to adding them anyway. I stopped looking but was only 79's that I saw some on.

Wallington

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2024, 08:57:53 PM »
Easy for anyone to imagine but here's a pic I just stumbled upon.

Low-mile and original 79 TA, no-A/C version. Hood has front seal holes left exposed. Previous years had no holes. Pretty sure the various hoods kept the same part numbers as before, just a running change, before being renumbered like most, around 1980.

https://photos.classiccars.com/cc-temp/listing/129/1977/18385896-1979-pontiac-firebird-trans-am-std.jpg

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2024, 12:10:23 AM »
Interesting. I don’t know about those seals but the rear ones, were allegedly to route more air thru the radiaitor somehow? I kind of wondered if it was more to keep the hot under hood air from traveling across the cowl when the AC is not in recirculate mode.

I think my main issue with idle airflow is that 403 shroud and thankfully it does good enough job 98% of the time unless temps are mid 90s or higher. Not positive about the highway speed “warming” but with slightly cooler ambient temps (such as a few days ago when I drove the car) the AC worked well and engine temp was no concern.

Regardless, all of this has been put on hold as my 2nd daughter decided to join the family this past Sunday 18 days ahead of schedule so no car fun for a bit lol.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2024, 07:53:52 AM »
If talking about the rear seals, all models had them to keep engine bay heat out of the cowl for cabin air, AC or non-A/C. The front hood seal was added when the nose changed shape for 79-81, which then became a bottom-breather and air being scooped up towards the hood top rather than through the radiator directly, stopped half just going over the top of the radiator instead. And of course, adding the AC option was probably just something that helped in keeping  the cooling system working just the little bit better. You'd think they'd have just added the seals to all but decided not needed and the rest can simply cope.

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2024, 11:46:45 AM »
Ah ok I misunderstood. Thought the rear seals were AC only too. Thanks for the clarification. I’m a bit sleep deprived with the new baby so I’m a little slow to pick up on things lately lol
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2024, 10:59:37 PM »
All good, just rambling anyway. Nothing new.

I was trying to locate one of the photos I posted previously, didn't find it but found similar. Posting for sake of it.

79 Formula with 301 and A/C. Air deflector shows the common signs of car sitting for long periods on a floor jack, which not only distort the shape but pull the retainers tight so it can't relax and straight. Needs a nice sunny day and some heat, and to loosen the screws and pull tight. Although this one is a lot worse than most. I  did it once or twice by accident with mine, not realising I'd let the jack down enough to touch it, but it straightened after a day or so and nothing further needed.

https://photos.classiccars.com/cc-temp/listing/147/6926/26133311-1979-pontiac-firebird-std.jpg

https://photos.classiccars.com/cc-temp/listing/147/6926/26133241-1979-pontiac-firebird-std.jpg

It's a shame no one has been able to measure their Pontiac engine shroud opening, makes mine irrelevant and half the chat about maybes.

Congrats on the little one. I missed out there, currently selling anything I'd stored for a family one day to make ends meet.

b_hill_86

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Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2024, 11:12:41 AM »
Thanks. And once I get more time to play with the car (whenever that may be) and after I replace my shroud, I may have to try to make something to force some air upward and see if that makes any difference.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Re: Fan shroud depth 400 vs 403
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2024, 11:12:41 AM »
You can help support TAC!