Hood alignment. My next impossible mission.

[DeCaff2007]

The pics speak for themselves.  What the Hell am I doing wrong here?





But yet, the front lines up perfectly.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

I've heard that you have to loosen the hinge bolts on the part of the hinge that bolts to the hood and pull the hood FORWARD for it to rest further down in the rear corners like that. Mine is high-ish on the passenger side rear corner, though not nearly that bad. I just haven't gotten around to aligning it yet. Alignment on the front body panels on these cars is reportedly a nightmare of its own. They were never really amazing even on the showroom floor.

First thing I'd do, though, is align your fenders with the doors before worrying about the hood. Your passenger side fender looks pretty off. Luckily your hood doesn't look bowed or anything. It's not uncommon for the hoods to be permanently warped due to somebody trying to open or close it with hinges that are binding. You need to properly work with the actuation of the hinge when opening and closing the hood - when closing you push it the hood BACK while going down, and while opening you pull up while also pulling forward.

Here's a decent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vhk1PrQprE

[FormTA]

Open the good an snap a picture of the bolt locations. I had to put washers between the hood and the hing on my formula to make it go down more. I know the adjustments are counter intuitive.

[DeCaff2007]

First thing I'd do, though, is align your fenders with the doors before worrying about the hood. Your passenger side fender looks pretty off. Luckily your hood doesn't look bowed or anything. It's not uncommon for the hoods to be permanently warped due to somebody trying to open or close it with hinges that are binding. You need to properly work with the actuation of the hinge when opening and closing the hood - when closing you push it the hood BACK while going down, and while opening you pull up while also pulling forward.

Here's a decent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vhk1PrQprE

Fair enough.  Yes, I was wondering about fender alignment, too.  Seems I should buy a pack or two of shims and go to town on the fenders.

Oh, and FWIW, the hood is fiberglass so I doubt it'll ever bow.  I took the factory shaker hood off and put a 75 Formy hood on - just because I think it looks way cooler.

[Wallington]

Good info, start from the doors and work your way forward, hood is basically last.

No, the fibreglass hoods definitely bowed if it still had the steel inner framing.

One part that often caught guys out was lifting the rear of the hinge in order to drop the hood down more. Sounds complete opposite. Except when hood is closed, it doesn't mean hinge is at its lowest closed point, just means hood is resting on the rubber stops, usually at front, and latched at front catch. By lifting the hinge at rear it allows even more hood closure than it could before. Hard to explain.

[FormTA]

That was actually a pretty good explanation.  I knew it was backwards and tough to explain.

[tinpusher]

As already mentioned, doors first, fenders, hood, nose. After the fenders are on , measure and make sure your square, then check your hood placement. I spent about 40 hours getting everything lined up, takes a lot of time and patience.

All of the above adjustments/alignment will only be correct if your sub-frame bushings are new or in good shape, if they are shot, your wasting your time. Make sure your sub-frame is also square.

[DeCaff2007]

As already mentioned, doors first, fenders, hood, nose. After the fenders are on , measure and make sure your square, then check your hood placement. I spent about 40 hours getting everything lined up, takes a lot of time and patience.

All of the above adjustments/alignment will only be correct if your sub-frame bushings are new or in good shape, if they are shot, your wasting your time. Make sure your sub-frame is also square.

Yep, subframe bushings are brandy new.  As for lining up the doors, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of wiggle room.  The passenger door shuts nearly flush against the quarter panel door jamb.  The driver side, not so much.  There's maybe an 1/8" of space between the door and the quarter panel door jamb.

[tinpusher]

It’s a real PITA if working by yourself. If yo have a hydraulic Jack, HF makes an adapter to fit on the bottom of the door. I was lucky enough to use sone adjustable straps attached to an eyelet in a garage ceiling rafter .
Use paint stirs sticks and tape them to your rear quarter panel door gap edge , one high, and one low, tape a long 1/4 strip along the bottom edge of the door lengthwise for your bottom gap and let it rest on the sill plate. Tighten the hinges from the door to the body. The hinges that is actually attached to the door adjusts the angle/tilt to line up with the rear quarter panel top and bottom.

[tinpusher]

It took me one day per door, they are heavy. It helps if you have them unloaded. After your doors are on, the fenders are a lot easier.

[tinpusher]

Forgot to mention, make sure that your hinges bushings are in good shape.. bad one’s will throw off your alignment…..

[FormTA]

If you have an engine lift, use two ratchet straps and create a sling and hanger the door from it. It makes it soo much easier.  But still a pain with the front fenders on.

But, I thunk everyone is jumping to align everything first but it looks to be a much bigger issue than that.

Like stated before try adjusting the hinges first and let's see how close we can get it before we get into tye other panels.  I just want to make sure there isn't something crazy going on with that hood.

[tinpusher]

Another thing to take into consideration….
I’m not sure if the fiberglass hood hinges use a different tension springs compared to a steel hood??… Wallington would probably have the answer on the hood springs, he’s awesome on research.

[FormTA]

Good point. I would take the springs off.

[Wallington]

Haha no I just have nothing better to do.

For what it's worth 71-76 used same spring regardless of hood. I often expected it to be heavier for the early fibreglass. It is often lighter for more recent fibreglass hoods, a different beast! Those with 2 cars with different hoods, or after a swap to Formula type, often notice it has just a touch more weight, springs feel softer,

[DeCaff2007]

It’s a real PITA if working by yourself. If yo have a hydraulic Jack, HF makes an adapter to fit on the bottom of the door. I was lucky enough to use sone adjustable straps attached to an eyelet in a garage ceiling rafter .
Use paint stirs sticks and tape them to your rear quarter panel door gap edge , one high, and one low, tape a long 1/4 strip along the bottom edge of the door lengthwise for your bottom gap and let it rest on the sill plate. Tighten the hinges from the door to the body. The hinges that is actually attached to the door adjusts the angle/tilt to line up with the rear quarter panel top and bottom.

1/4" strip of what? 

[tinpusher]

1/4 paint stir stick, it will give you the proper door to sill plate gap.
I usually keep the door latch striker bolt in place, try to adjust it very close to your desired position, this will help hold the door in the correct position while setting you hinge position.

[DeCaff2007]

1/4 paint stir stick, it will give you the proper door to sill plate gap.
I usually keep the door latch striker bolt in place, try to adjust it very close to your desired position, this will help hold the door in the correct position while setting you hinge position.

This is assuming that everything is installed on the top of the rocker panels as they should be, yes? 

[DeCaff2007]

I got the shims in....



I had to stack 4 paint sticks in the door jamb to get the body lines to line up.

The better part of 6 hours was wasted today because I'll get things sorta lined up, then go to open the door and as soon as it clears the jamb on the rocker, it DROPS a good 1/4"  I don't see how.  The hinges are brand new (although, the spring perch snapped off the top hinge not too long ago).  I have yet another brand new one on order.

So, I gave it one last try today, then this happened.   



To HELL with this!  I'm not a body man.  Too many variables and too much time wasted on something that might never be right.  Plus, I just don't have the patience for it.

[tinpusher]

I feel you pain… I’m not a body guy and when Covid hit, most shops around me were not accepting projects.  So I learned everything about body and paint work through YouTube and other forums. When you spend hours trying to get that extra 1/8 inch and don’t succeed, that’s when I would save it for another day… walk away and try again the next day.
I ended finding this part of the restoration very relaxing. It’s difficult and time consuming, but you’ll be rewarded in the end.
It looks like you are on the right track and your lines were looking good. Buy a bolt retractor and remove the broken bolt.
Body shops charge a ton of $$ and sone of their work isn’t all that great… remember it takes the pros months to complete a car. I hope you stay with it.

[DeCaff2007]

I feel you pain… I’m not a body guy and when Covid hit, most shops around me were not accepting projects.  So I learned everything about body and paint work through YouTube and other forums. When you spend hours trying to get that extra 1/8 inch and don’t succeed, that’s when I would save it for another day… walk away and try again the next day.
I ended finding this part of the restoration very relaxing. It’s difficult and time consuming, but you’ll be rewarded in the end.
It looks like you are on the right track and your lines were looking good. Buy a bolt retractor and remove the broken bolt.
Body shops charge a ton of $$ and sone of their work isn’t all that great… remember it takes the pros months to complete a car. I hope you stay with it.

The bolt isn't the real problem.  I'm confident I can it loose without much issue. 

The problem is that I still don't have the patience nor the know-how for this. 

As for the pros, my FIL did this stuff for a living and he was damned good at it.  He's long since retired, but he is available for a consult now and then lol.

[5th T/A]

Well said by tinpusher. It takes time , perseverance and patience to get it right. You are fortunate to have a knowledgeable FIL to help you out. If you take your car to a shop they need to make a profit. Time is money, nobody has a bigger interest in getting everything perfect than you do. If you can be patient and not expect get it done quickly you will be be rewarded with the satisfaction of having done it yourself versus writing a check. If you follow the restorations on this forum you will see it often takes a long time to complete a car. In some cases a real long time. Most people have a job and a family that takes priority over a hobby. Hang in there, take a step back and relax if need be. Building a car should be rewarding, not stressful.

[roadking77]

"building a car should be rewarding not stressful" I wish you would have told me that a long time ago!  (LOL)
YES, I agree completely. When the stress level hits the tipping point, its time to take a step back. As they say, theres nothing wrong with punting
Sometimes an hour, a day or a week away from a difficult task will make a big difference. 'Caff, from knowing you on this forum over the years I think you are a lot like my son. He tends to get frustrated when he faces a difficult situation or something he doesnt understand quite so well. I tell him to take a step back, deep breath and relax. Easier said than done but it works.

For the door installation, IF the door is in its position and once you open, it drops, there has to be a problem with the hinges. Thats the only moving part. I have years of experience doing door work with building projects and I look at a car door the same way. There are a couple of adjustments. In and out, Up and down and 'wind'. That is when the top is in further than the bottom, and visa versa. I have found removing the strike on the jamb is the easiest way to adjust the door. That way you can open and close without having to latch every time. Also if the latch is out a bit that will throw you off. Take the strike off, adjust the door one way, along the quarter panel and then worry about the in and out.

Good Luck, take a break and stay at it. You will get it. AND dont worry about getting it perfect, they never were!

[FormTA]

Well, I typed out a long explanation if how I do it but it didn't post...  Here it is again...

I know you will probably hate this and others will disagree with it, but this is the only way it works for me.

I have to have the fenders and nose off. I use an engine lift with ratchet straps as a sling to hange the door from. This way you can close the door and tilt it in and out (wind as Kerry calls it) and front and back easily.  I also do this with the striker removed. On a side note make sure the glass and everything is there so the weight is all in yhe door. I didn't the first time and the door sagged after I loaded it up.

Get the door level with the rocker and the body line straight. If all you can do is get the body line straight and aligned with the quarter then go with that. Once the door has acceptable gaps and lines mount the fenders and nose. Measure the hood width plus some for the gaps. Also X measure the opening so you know it's square.  Mount the hinges with the rearof the hinge down as far as possible and then mount the hood loosely. Slowly close it to see how it will fit.

I one into more depth before but that's the easiest way for me. Basically because the hinge bolts are accessible and the door is easily moved into location.

[tinpusher]

I’m one that will never disagree with what works from person to person , that’s what I like about this forum.
I spent hours trying…trying to get my gaps exact, didn’t happen…..very, very close and called it a win. When I got to the hood,  my ADD kicked in and after spending hours with two different pairs of stock hood hinges, I decided that maybe aftermarket was the way to go on this one…
I purchased a set of CVF Racing hood hinges with numerous adjustable positions, and they were a pita to get right. It took days for me then perfection. The hood opens and closes like butter, the ram shocks work perfectly.
Very pricey but I don’t have to worry about my painted edges along the back where the fenders and the back of the hood join. No sideways movement, just straight up down with one finger.

[roadking77]

Those billet hinges look great! I can only imagine how smooth they operate. Unfortunately I am a purist and am afraid the look would be too different from stock for my use  but if I didnt care about appearance I would get a set in a heartbeat. I already have a gas shock I got from ring brothers for my trunk lid that is fantastic but that is pushing the limits in my case.

[DeCaff2007]

Ok, so a couple of things, here.  My new hinge came in.  It's clearly a higher quality part than the last one.  Installed in 10 minutes. 



Then, I got the door gap set to where my patience level would accept, lol.  The same paint sticks were fitting between the door and the quarter panel door jamb pretty well.  Then, I shut the door, messed with the striker a few times, and I was happy with it. 

Next, I sat in the car and did nothing but back it out of the garage.  That same door gap then went sphincter tight 



Dunno how the Hell that happened.  It won't really matter.  The fender will interfere with the front of the door if it's not set back as far as it can get. 

Well, then something told me to check the radiator support bushings.  They were brand new about 10 years ago.  Uh huh...  this doesn't look right.



I have a new kit on order.  In the meantime, I guess I'll find something else to work on.

[5th T/A]

Are you sure the door hinges didn't loosen up?

Not sure if you mentioned this or not but you should check the bushings between the subframe and the body. On my 1980 TA, I recall a slight difference between the front and rear bushings height.  I have seen the bolts that hold the subframe to the body rust badly to the point of being only half the original diameter.

Like you mentioned a good idea to replace the core support bushings, for that matter make sure the core support isn't badly rusted.

[DeCaff2007]

Are you sure the door hinges didn't loosen up?

Not sure if you mentioned this or not but you should check the bushings between the subframe and the body. On my 1980 TA, I recall a slight difference between the front and rear bushings height.  I have seen the bolts that hold the subframe to the body rust badly to the point of being only half the original diameter.

Like you mentioned a good idea to replace the core support bushings, for that matter make sure the core support isn't badly rusted.

Well, yeah, pretty sure. 

I don't understand how the subframe bushings being unserviceable would have anything to do with the door not lining up/sagging.  The fenders, yes I could see that 100%. 

Uh, the rad support, for what it is, is in really good shape. 

So, what I did was just hung the door again and shut it just to shut it.  It actually lined up pretty decently.  Ha!  Could be a tad higher on the body lines, but I'd be tempted to just run like that.  Either way, I had to pull it back in the garage for the night.  I will say, however, working in my driveway with nice warm sunshine was more pleasant than being in the confines of a poorly lit garage.

[FormTA]

These cars are like wet noodles... even mine with solid body mounts and subframe connectors seems to still move a bit. I had mine 100% perfect with new bushings in the hinges and everything tight and my door were awesome and then one day they dropped a tiny bit and now drag on the striker when closed... I don't get it either....

Wait until you have to align the door window.... That is a task I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy
..


It looks like you are making progress though.  Keep at it and you get there.

[roadking77]

The subframe bushings are def. serviceable. Well maybe not needing typical maintenance but they will def. have an effect on how the body aligns. If you did not replace them, you need to do those before you go any further. I would never attempt to drive a second gen without having new  body bushings. Like Larry said, I have seen them where the bolts were all but rusted through. You have something else other than door hinges going on if you had the door just right only to have it move once the car started in motion  I aligned the doors on my 77, 7 or 8 years ago (or however long the car has been on the road) and they still fit as nice as the day I put them in, and that is with a t top car.

[FormTA]

I will say, I think most of my problem was aligning a empty door shell and then loading it up with glass and window motor and tracks.

[5th T/A]

Great advice from Luke and Kerry. You need to start with a good foundation.

I have to chuckle at the "noodle" analogy, maybe these cars are more like a wet noodle. Having a subframe that is cantilevered off a flimsy unibody is not the best design for a solid platform. Depending how the placement of jack stands it's possible to have the car up in the air and not be able to open a door. Or if the door is already open when placing on stands, you may not be able to close it. That is why the cars weight has to be on the tires when you do body panel alignment. I think someone already mentioned, remove the latch when aligning the door.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, hopefully the body is not badly rusted? The subframe is not rusted or cracked? All the bushings and hardware are in good condition? As you mentioned the integrity of the core support is good, it's not unusual to find them rusted or cracked.

Even with the front fenders removed, you should be able to align the doors and roll the car around and not have the door gaps change.

[tinpusher]

The sub frame bushings shouldn’t have a impact on you door alignment. I would add an additional shim, make the gap is wider than what you want, then tighten your hinges, and see what the alignment looks like.
My opinion… I think the caged nuts behind the body where the doors attaches have some “memory “ meaning they want to slide into the old indentions.
My doors did the same thing. I would take out the striker and set the rear body line a little higher.
Like others have said… these panels like to move…

[tinpusher]

If your body, where the hinge mounts is a little raised, you might want to apply some heat and hammer it back/flat.
These doors are heavy and really pull on the metal mounting points….  Just my thoughts on the whole “memory “mounting areas… you should see what I can come up with when I drink…lol

[roadking77]

I think in theory the body bushings would not have an effect on the alignment with the opening side of the door and the jamb side of the body, as much as the hinge side of the door and the fender. However, if the bushings are bad the body is going to move, thus having an impact on the overall fit. I will stand by my statement that there is no way the door should be moving from its position once it is set. Something else is going on!

[firebirdparts]

Hard to believe the factory made each adjustment in about a minute, isn't it?  But they sure had the order down pat.

I'm not sure if anybody exactly explained the hinges.  They will suck down if you rotate the part on the fender down in back and up in front.  That will pull the hood straight down.

[DeCaff2007]

Well, I've temporarily moved on from door/fender/hood alignment.  The biggest reason being that I was waiting on radiator support bushings to come in.  I took a look at what I have installed and they just don't look right.

So the parts actually came in today and they look nothing like what's currently installed.



These are what came in today, from Fbodywarehouse. 



Once these get installed, I'll try the door alignment again.  Although, I still don't understand why the driver side door sags down a 1/4" even with new hinges.

Hmm...

[5th T/A]

Are you saying the door drops 1/4” when opened?

[DeCaff2007]

Are you saying the door drops 1/4” when opened?

Yes sir.