Door mirror glass

[Wallington]

Has anyone had to replace a scratched or broken door mirror glass? Found one brand better than the rest?

Years ago I bought a set or replacement mirror glass, just as spares. I don't recall the brand, if they even had one, but were added to other items from a restoration parts shop. I know that what turned up was very thin, light and had jagged rough edges all the way around. Extremely poor quality, I simply threw them out.

I now have a few spare mirrors. I generally buy them based on perfect glass and chrome, and ability to dismantle entire cable from housing, etc, but naturally what turns up doesn't always match photos or description. So one or two have glass that isn't much good, to myself or the next person. On the plus side, they are early model castings which didn't always have the date codes like the common Donnelly glass, if that ever mattered, so aren't losing anything with a replacement.

https://www.stage1restoration.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/BuickSportMirrorGlass.jpg

[Updated71]

I haven’t crossed this bridge yet but need to. The Buick link posted looks good on its face.
I’m planning on getting rid of the cable altogether but still need a good quality mirror.

[sreta]

I got mine made by the local glass shop. They turned out great, smoked, same thickness as factory, one flat, one curved, with brushed edges. Paid about 5$ for both.

[Wallington]

Did the curved glass with text on RH side have a matching curved backing plate? Or just the double sided tape allowed it to still fit? I don't have one to check if same casting numbers on the black plastic.

[sreta]

Yes, the backing plate is curved as well.

[Wallington]

Thanks, good to know.

[Wallington]

While on the topic of RH mirrors with convex glass, does anyone know when they changed over? This isn't something I normally even look at. Even browsing parts, if I see that glass I ignore and move on. But this one is dated 7-78 which is much earlier than I realised.

Firebird RH convex mirror Object closer than they appear text 7-78 by Ben, on Flickr

Around '83 or so the DMI Donnelly etching gained a Registered R logo as well. If you see the larger A/G body mirrors you can pick them by the R logo as well and determine if mid 70's or mid 80's, other than the convex text.

This also affected 70-81 F bodies for spare parts produced long after production ended. Here's a NOS LH Firebird remote mirror but produced in 7-84 with R logo. The mirror would also use different castings and components to that of a 74 year version.

NOS GM Firebird mirror set LH RH remote (11) by Ben, on Flickr

[b_hill_86]

Anyone actually have a convex RH mirror? These mirrors are so small I’d wonder if it’s much better than the flat version but then again I find my flat version nearly useless aside from backing into the garage

[5th T/A]

My 1980 TA has a convex mirror on the passenger side. I can say it’s definitely better than a flat mirror and leave it at that. I am spoiled by modern mirrors that have several times the surface area of these old mirrors. Maybe a couple years ago there was a member who installed modern electric mirrors from I think a Chrysler or Dodge. I am sure they were a big improvement in the visibility department, but to me the proportions just didn’t look great when looking at the outside of the car.

[b_hill_86]

Yea I remember that. I want to say it was Challenger mirrors.

[b_hill_86]

So could the guts of a convex mirror be removed and replace the guts in a flat mirror housing? Since it doesn’t sound like you can stick convex glass onto the backing of a flat glass mirror backing.

[Wallington]

I don't have a convex mirror to check but I don't believe there were any further changes to the castings or internals, just a new curved backing plate, as mentioned by sreta.

The RH side are a lot easier to play around with, just 2 screws, 3 screws on earlier versions, holding the internal pedestal onto the support, the mirror head housing sandwiched between. If you wanted to test the glass then it would be a good way to swap over and keep existing painted housings, and easily converted back again.

The only thing to check is if your existing 1977 mirror uses the mid or late 70's casting. This could also be determined by the unused screw hole at the top behind the glass, from an even earlier internals version and remote option that didn't eventuate for this type.

I'll explain with a few photos I took recently. Not terribly clear but this is a 75-ish housing and my late-77 housing. You can see it has an unused screw hole at the top on the older casting. The LH remote mirrors still used this with some casting versions until the end, but RH side didn't, usually. But the main detail is the mounting base for the pedestal that supports the mounting plate that pivots. The older bare casting has a raised block after the screw holes, the black mirror has a slightly lower ledge. Then you'll see the pedestal photo below has longer stepped based to suit.

Firebird RH door mirror casting variations (10) by Ben, on Flickr

Here's the inner pedestals of the mid-70's type at top and longer mounting base at the bottom from later 70's. The later version castings were actually modified from the even earlier version casting not shown which was a block and then the angled extension added.

The black plastic backs also changed shape but didn't affect anything, glass was the same and still flat with these examples. I don't know of any issues with the mirrors being weak or loose or breaking through the castings but the later version is much chunkier as well as the extra screw. I can imagine it would be easy to remove part of this extension casting where the line is to fit a late mirror into an earlier housing. Likewise, early will fit in late but leave an unused hole.

Firebird RH door mirror casting variations (15) by Ben, on Flickr

Hopefully my rambling makes sense. Now I'll have to buy a convex mirror version to pull apart just so I don't have to guess with info no one cares about!

[langss]

While on the topic of RH mirrors with convex glass, does anyone know when they changed over? This isn't something I normally even look at. Even browsing parts, if I see that glass I ignore and move on. But this one is dated 7-78 which is much earlier than I realised.

My original 78, a Van Nuys Car, was an end of  May build, and came with the Flat Mirror no lettering. When the car was Vandalized right after I got it, I got the lettered  replacement mirror. The Body shop said that was all that was available.

[b_hill_86]

I care Ben and I appreciate it. I also may be a guinnea pig since I’m thinking of getting a convex to see if I can install it in the housing for my 77. Seems to me when I had mine apart to put better glass in I have the two hole type.

[Wallington]

Just to mix it up with further confusing info, here's a RH mirror from 9-76. It's a version 1 of the KBC 52811 casting, still retains the casting bosses but no longer drilled. What it does have, however, is the lower stepped housing for where the glass pedestal mounts. And yes, also '76 castings so not as easy as swapped internals. It has a 3rd hole drilled in the mount, and tapped, but not used. It still keeps the remote cable hole for an option that never came that required the casting bosses mentioned, and differnt version to the JC '75 casting above. So it is an intermediate mirror between early castings the the later pedestal which carried right through to the end. (I still haven't checked a convex mirror to confirm!) Just wanted to show that the later 3 hole mounts still fit some 2-hole castings. That 3rd hole moved around as well, usually on the JC casting version, with undated glass, they typically went together.

Firebird RH door mirror 9-76 52811 52812 52813 9626971 (16) by Ben, on Flickr

Firebird RH door mirror 9-76 52811 52812 52813 9626971 (14) by Ben, on Flickr

[b_hill_86]

I haven’t yet found a reasonably priced convex to pick up. Especially with variations like this that may make swapping glass more difficult.

[Wallington]

I actually posted this to show that it could be easier than I previously mentioned. This is a 76 mirror, one variation your 77 could have, yet would still likely work with later inners. The even earlier version would require trimming of the base mount.

Brian, sent you a PM also.

[b_hill_86]

Ok I misunderstood. I did get your PM though and replied.

[b_hill_86]

Picked up a cheap RH mirror with convex glass thanks to Wallington finding one reasonably priced. The flat glass backing that was on the car (but not original) has the longer mount with a 3rd hole. They’re also fine thread screws in there. My housing is flat inside. The convex housing has a recessed area to accept the shorter backing mount. The backing of both seem to be the same so I kind of wonder if you can just change out the glass. Pretty sure I have an extra flat glass mirror in my shed. I may peel the glass off to see. The glass in my “new” convex one isn’t the greatest (though it’s better that what I had) so I may try to replace that glass someday.

[Wallington]

Is the black backing plate on the convex mirror still 9626971? And your 'original' was 9814437? If so, then there's nothing different about the backing plate assembly, just the new convex glass added, attached around the perimeter so wouldn't matter if the centre was flush or raised, the flat glass didn't touch either. I may have given you bad advice based on previous information posted that is possibly incorrect in this case.

[b_hill_86]

Opposite actually. Flat is 9626971 and convex is 9814437. Convex is reinstalled but here’s the flat.

[Wallington]

Interesting. Or at least for fairly non-interesting things! On my sample mirrors my older ones with shorter pedestal have the later back (or what appeared to be), and vice versa. So basically, the same as your backing plates but with the cast pedestals swapped over. And while your own mirror was a little unknown, the newer mirror still came with early design 2 hole mount. And of course, who's to say it wasn't an earlier mirror fitted with replacement convex glass over 45 years. I couldn't locate a particular date casting on my mirrors of that JC foundry type so that doesn't help much either to determine its past life.

Point being, both were previously used on flat glass. I was almost expecting another version or update, but of course, looking at how the glass attaches, it wouldn't matter.

Here's a very early mirror with missing glass but using the same '4437 backing as your new convex. So who knows, but gives a good idea of where the glass was attached. Most replacement probably still come with double-sided tape in the centre. Of course, most people would simply attach over top of old glass.

69-72 RH GM mirror no glass 2 by Ben, on Flickr

Regardless, hopefully the glass helps you decide if easier or not to see out of, even if you seek a better version of same. Or swap back.

[b_hill_86]

Actually got to go for a ride tonight and man, what a difference. Still small of course but it’s amazing how a bit of curvature really changes things. Much better. I’m definitely going to try to buy a new piece of glass and replace it at some point. I think it’s worth the effort. Truthfully, that probably won’t be for a long time lol. But I know I can. Your glassless picture is helpful also when the time comes to try to remove mine. I have another spare I can dig out and give a go at for practice too.

[b_hill_86]

Did notice this though in the “new” pedestal. Certainly, someone could’ve drilled a new hole but they tend to look fairly uniform so not sure if it was added by someone or not.

[Wallington]

Aaah yes, all original with this casting version, which I call the JC casting. Slight variations and revisions and the holes come and go with each revision.

I've had some that use the extra hole and some that leave it bare. It threads directly into the head casting rear block, keeping it as a unit while adding the glass assembly, others simply sandwich it together. The 3rd screw type isn't original in this one, I had to source one with a much smaller head to fit but still matching thread. And as you found out they liked to swap between self-tapper thread to machined thread types, even security head for last few years. Looks like you got one of each but with later head and washer.

Firebird RH door mirror casting variations (18) by Ben, on Flickr

None of mine have that exact casting number update but the rest is still very similar. Note the cable hole still part of the casting, but never used.

Firebird RH door mirror paint stripped no date code 1  (14) by Ben, on Flickr

Same head castings but version 1 and version 2. One has the extra hole in the base, the other has it through the front. So a matched set when they match up. They still swap back and forth with each other, just mismatched 3rd holes. Note the cable hole disappears again on what was an earlier version. I've turned the photo, they are not different sizes.

Firebird RH door mirror casting variations (4) by Ben, on Flickr

Firebird RH door mirror casting variations (7) by Ben, on Flickr

Firebird RH door mirror casting variations (6) by Ben, on Flickr

Did your new mirror have the 3rd screw installed or just the standard 2? I noticed your head casting has the top unused hole still drilled, and a dimpled but undrilled hole for the same mount I posted above with front screw. Does yours have the thread hole into the rear block, the 3rd hole? None of mine have had both of these.

[Wallington]

Just to complete the other post, I went and dragged out this casting version with front screw hole. This is also why I call it the JC type.

Firebird RH door mirror JC 3-screw casting (2) by Ben, on Flickr

Firebird RH door mirror JC 3-screw casting (3) by Ben, on Flickr

And just to prove something no one asked,  I pulled apart a KBC casting mirror to see what happens if you mismatch the castings, perhaps to combine mirror parts from spares. The internals are the same other than previous early-late mounting extension.

This is the JC head casting and the KBC support casting. It fits snug and is more than usable. The screw holes are a little off but they are oversized anyway. The support casting is also shorter on the head by about the same distance the holes are out.

Firebird RH door mirror mismatched castings JC head KBC support holes off centre by Ben, on Flickr

The other way around, not as good and noticeable if were trying to combine. This is the KBC head on the JC support casting. The extreme front of the support sits a touch short of touching the mating surface. That overlap is what touches the head, leaving a small gap under, and a slight rock from side to side. This could be remedied with some some filing or perhaps a thin compressible gasket between the two parts. The gap shadow is only at the top, that large scallop is part of the head casting, same for both.

Firebird RH door mirror mismatched castings KBC head JC support gap and rocks (3) by Ben, on Flickr

[b_hill_86]

Mine only had two screws and I’m not sure about the threaded hole. I’ll have to look.

[Wallington]

Just giving this a bump again. I have a few spare mirrors to sell that have less than perfect glass, wanted to have a bit of an idea what exists for when they ask me where to get glass! Yes, I'd also drop a sample in to the local glass/mirror shop to have cut, haven't done it in 15 years to know what currently costs.

Has anyone tried the brand name replacements? Seems many online that don't mention a name are Burco, Exactafit or Dorman style, or have it covered up to hide the etched logo and details.

Then there's restoration brands like OER, the ad pictures show no lettering but I wouldn't trust that unless you saw one. Appears to be lettering.

Anyone have experience with new glass? Which brands were good, which were bad, etched details, plain, indifference?! If I get enough interest  I could even get a few spares cut, but the guys here don't like paying cost price, let alone much else!

Just to add to the previous conversation, I ended up with a late '78 convex RH mirror. The inner mounting plate was not curved but flat, just the mirror glass was and attached with double-sided tape as per usual. Interestingly, though (not really) is that it used an existing casting and number but had slotted openings so could see back of glass and tape. Not sure as to the purpose, helping to secure the glass, no idea. But also just realised I didn't take close-up pics so will have to dismantle it again....!

[b_hill_86]

I thought convex was like 80 or 81? I got two more RH mirrors in some parts I bought that both have convex glass if you want me to take apart for any reason. One might have glass slightly better than the one I installed on my 77 so I may steal that.

[Wallington]

Around 6-78 the convex started to appear, no idea how long it took until cars only got them though. The dates weren't always close to the production date of vehicle but could be. I don't know if there was a date requirement to change over or just gradual as stocks used up.

Appreciate that, really only after ideas at this stage. Can look into costs to get some shipped, or to pass the info on but didn't really have any first hand info on which are good glass. That would at least give me some cost ideas to compare to getting some cut instead too. But just curious as much as anything as something I don't know yet, sounds like bragging haha but no, I like to have info before it gets asked!

What are the general thoughts of owners with the convex glass? Find it easier to use? Don't really notice or care enough to have an opinion?!

[b_hill_86]

For as often is I drive my car (or even as little sometimes) I love my convex mirror. Such a big difference in its usability. I’d like to get new glass for both mirrors eventually but that’ll probably wait since there are so many other projects to deal with first.

[5th T/A]

What are the general thoughts of owners with the convex glass? Find it easier to use? Don't really notice or care enough to have an opinion?!

Going decades without driving a second gen Firebird, I had forgotten how tiny the side view mirrors were. My right-hand mirror is convex and I definitely like it.

[Wallington]

I've found that they'd be useful, but don't exist standard, in a RHD car. Not just the same reason but on the opposite side, but because the mirror head angles are not copied from side to side. You can still adjust the glass manually, or by remote, but it can be sitting beyond the housing for the 'same' angle had it been on the factory side. Convex would cover this and allow it to turn back out a little. Not from a functional and driving point, from looking at the car from outside. It would be neat to have a set cut up custom, minus any text, and swap out as needed. My original glass is still better than the next 20 I bought, go figure.

[FormTA]

I agree Larry. Getting behind the wheel again of these cars you realize a lot of advancements in automobiles. The mirrors are tiny I believe my passenger mirror is flat as I can barely see anything in it.

[roadking77]

Same with my car Luke, but I dont worry about where Ive been as much as where Im going, LOL.

[b_hill_86]

I agree Larry. Getting behind the wheel again of these cars you realize a lot of advancements in automobiles. The mirrors are tiny I believe my passenger mirror is flat as I can barely see anything in it.

I have to double check that the glass moves freely but if you want one of my extra convex mirrors you can have it.

[FormTA]

Thanks, I may take you up on that but I didn't even know there was a convex version. I have a bunch of them in my stash so I'll have to go looking now.... Are they marked with the "objects are closer than they appear" text or how can you tell?

Edit. I didn't read the thread well enough.  Sorry.

[b_hill_86]

Yea they’re marked with that text

[Wallington]

Sometimes you get lucky and what appears to be a poor mirror can clean up and be mint. But most the time, one sold as looking to be good is in fact junk when it appears. I couldn't even sell something that was dirty. In fact, I can't even sell it once cleaned up in old paint!

This is my 9-78 mirror. I also have a photo of a 7-78 convex, but have seen one from 6-78. I haven't really looked until recent times. Oh....my 7-78 pic is at top of thread.

Firebird RH 9-78 convex mirror KBC 52811 52812 cleaned-up before (4) by Ben, on Flickr

Firebird RH mirror 9-78 Convex stripped bare (1) by Ben, on Flickr

[b_hill_86]

Sometimes you get lucky and what appears to be a poor mirror can clean up and be mint. But most the time, one sold as looking to be good is in fact junk when it appears. I couldn't even sell something that was dirty. In fact, I can't even sell it once cleaned up in old paint!

This is my 9-78 mirror. I also have a photo of a 7-78 convex, but have seen one from 6-78. I haven't really looked until recent times. Oh....my 7-78 pic is at top of thread.

Firebird RH 9-78 convex mirror KBC 52811 52812 cleaned-up before (4) by Ben, on Flickr

Firebird RH mirror 9-78 Convex stripped bare (1) by Ben, on Flickr

The glass in that second picture looks pretty good. Not sure how these all seem to end up scratched in some way.

Luke, I did check and both mirrors have movable glass.