Author Topic: Carburetor Issue  (Read 3715 times)

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Carburetor Issue
« on: February 10, 2023, 10:05:24 PM »
Howdy,
    Recently took apart the Quadrajet and rebuilt it using cliffs book, SR kit rebuild kit, and a bunch of youtube videos but I am having some issues. I was able to get the car running and idling fine, still need to test and tune the high idle and choke because I think it isn't working properly, but besides that it idles steady and works as it should at operating temp. However, I have a lingering issue that also happens to be the main reason I rebuilt it in the first place. There is a consistent spot on part throttle that has the tendency to bog the Quadrajet and at the most extreme if I hold it right eventually kill the car. Some more specifics on the issue is that it happens on a consistent part on the throttle position, pedal is depressed roughly 2 inches, Only happens when I rapidly press the pedal, really noticeable on moderate revs at idle, you can ease by the "death zone" but it isn't easy due to how early it is on the throttle, not as noticeable when the car is up to speed, most noticeable from a dead step or simply idling. After extensive research my two theories are a faulty accelerator pump mechanism, and running to lean. During my rebuild I fully replaced the accelerator pump and made sure the walls were squeaky clean and I couldn't see any glaring issues. I left pretty much everything stock inside the carb and either cleaned, replace with a new part, or used the old part, no upgrades or anything like idle tubes, jets, etc. I was just hoping on getting some input on this issue if it sounds familiar, or can tell me how to diagnose it better. I am also fighting around 20ish degree weather in Minnesota so it isn't ideal for tuning and running, as well as the inability to test drive but I don't think these issues should still be relevant. Currently waiting for verification on cliffs forums, but would like to hear from you guys as well.

Any questions or you need more info let me know, I probably left out some information that I cannot think of at the moment,
Thanks.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2023, 11:31:46 PM »
I’m kinda having trouble understanding the circumstances that exist to create your problem. You mention it occurs when you hood the throttle but then mention rapidly pressing the pedal. Does it occur under a load only or will it do it in park/neutral too? Just need a little more info to clarify but to be honest if you posted over at cliffs, I have no doubt you’ll reach a resolution there.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2023, 11:57:38 PM »
I’m kinda having trouble understanding the circumstances that exist to create your problem. You mention it occurs when you hood the throttle but then mention rapidly pressing the pedal. Does it occur under a load only or will it do it in park/neutral too? Just need a little more info to clarify but to be honest if you posted over at cliffs, I have no doubt you’ll reach a resolution there.

Sorry, sort of just typed all the info out quick since it was fresh in my head. Basically if you press the pedal down, my estimation is around the 2 inch mark(about the same throttle range as if you were revving it), it will bog and if you were to hold it in this spot it could eventually kill the car. It occurs any time you give it that certain amount of throttle, but it is most noticeable when parked. Essentially it is a very large hesitation that can cause the car to die out if held in that specific zone.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

nUcLeArEnVoY

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 702
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2023, 07:56:12 AM »
I’m kinda having trouble understanding the circumstances that exist to create your problem. You mention it occurs when you hood the throttle but then mention rapidly pressing the pedal. Does it occur under a load only or will it do it in park/neutral too? Just need a little more info to clarify but to be honest if you posted over at cliffs, I have no doubt you’ll reach a resolution there.

Sorry, sort of just typed all the info out quick since it was fresh in my head. Basically if you press the pedal down, my estimation is around the 2 inch mark(about the same throttle range as if you were revving it), it will bog and if you were to hold it in this spot it could eventually kill the car. It occurs any time you give it that certain amount of throttle, but it is most noticeable when parked. Essentially it is a very large hesitation that can cause the car to die out if held in that specific zone.

Sounds like a fuel delivery or fuel mixture issue, for sure.

You say when it happens with sudden, rapid revs at idle? Sounds like your accelerator pump, which assists with fuel delivery when you give sudden revs that require a squirt of fuel to be delivered quicker than by the venturi vacuum-regulated fuel delivery increase that comes with opening the throttle plates. Make sure it's been installed correctly if it's new, and maybe replace it with one sold by Cliff Ruggles on his website that is resistant to ethanol fuels (which I'm assuming you use). Ethanol fuel swells a lot of the aftermarket accelerator pump rubber seals, rendering them useless. Textbook accelerator pump failure symptoms sound similar to what you're describing.

Another simple thing, replace your fuel filter if you haven't already. I had similar symptoms and it turned out to be a clogged fuel filter after I stuffed Berryman B12 in the gas tank... let's just stay the stuff did its job. I now routinely replace my filter every six months.

Next, are you making enough fuel pressure? Later 70's QJets with the small floats are able to easily handle 7.5 - 9.5 PSI, even according to the service manual. If you're making way less then that, you may be causing fuel starvation. Simple enough to check - swap out the fuel pump to carburetor metal line with a rubber line and tee-in a fuel pressure gauge as close to the inlet as you can, just to check your fuel pressure. After you're done, you can replace the hard line.

Three, what's your float setting at? Too low, you're starving the engine for fuel, but I doubt that it can be that low. Mine is at factory setting of 17/32 which is already super low and this issue doesn't happen to me.

Four, check allover for vacuum leaks.
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop

phil400

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2023, 09:18:39 AM »
Normally Accelorator pump issues will cause an initial bog(from the momentarly lean mixture) then it'll take off and run fine when you go to WOT quickly.
Just to be clear your just starting to get into the secondaries when it happens right?
78 T/A 4 speed, original paint, match #s, mine since ‘99, 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive.
77 T/A sold
85 Monte Carlo SS sold
83 Mustang GT sold
https://youtube.com/@classicdriversgarage108

Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2023, 09:18:39 AM »

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2023, 11:02:27 AM »
I’m kinda having trouble understanding the circumstances that exist to create your problem. You mention it occurs when you hood the throttle but then mention rapidly pressing the pedal. Does it occur under a load only or will it do it in park/neutral too? Just need a little more info to clarify but to be honest if you posted over at cliffs, I have no doubt you’ll reach a resolution there.

Sorry, sort of just typed all the info out quick since it was fresh in my head. Basically if you press the pedal down, my estimation is around the 2 inch mark(about the same throttle range as if you were revving it), it will bog and if you were to hold it in this spot it could eventually kill the car. It occurs any time you give it that certain amount of throttle, but it is most noticeable when parked. Essentially it is a very large hesitation that can cause the car to die out if held in that specific zone.

And if you push the pedal further than that, what happens? Will the engine not die?

I tend to lean toward an accelerator pump issue as well but I’d hold off on the other stuff suggested for the time being. I don’t like introducing too many variables when troubleshooting and honestly, if it’s not  dying when you press the pedal further than the point you described you’re probably not starving for fuel as far as fuel in the bowl.

You could try to record this happening. Upload a private video to YouTube and post. Don’t have to but it could speed up the diagnoses.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2023, 11:15:26 AM »
I’m kinda having trouble understanding the circumstances that exist to create your problem. You mention it occurs when you hood the throttle but then mention rapidly pressing the pedal. Does it occur under a load only or will it do it in park/neutral too? Just need a little more info to clarify but to be honest if you posted over at cliffs, I have no doubt you’ll reach a resolution there.

Sorry, sort of just typed all the info out quick since it was fresh in my head. Basically if you press the pedal down, my estimation is around the 2 inch mark(about the same throttle range as if you were revving it), it will bog and if you were to hold it in this spot it could eventually kill the car. It occurs any time you give it that certain amount of throttle, but it is most noticeable when parked. Essentially it is a very large hesitation that can cause the car to die out if held in that specific zone.

Sounds like a fuel delivery or fuel mixture issue, for sure.

You say when it happens with sudden, rapid revs at idle? Sounds like your accelerator pump, which assists with fuel delivery when you give sudden revs that require a squirt of fuel to be delivered quicker than by the venturi vacuum-regulated fuel delivery increase that comes with opening the throttle plates. Make sure it's been installed correctly if it's new, and maybe replace it with one sold by Cliff Ruggles on his website that is resistant to ethanol fuels (which I'm assuming you use). Ethanol fuel swells a lot of the aftermarket accelerator pump rubber seals, rendering them useless. Textbook accelerator pump failure symptoms sound similar to what you're describing.

Another simple thing, replace your fuel filter if you haven't already. I had similar symptoms and it turned out to be a clogged fuel filter after I stuffed Berryman B12 in the gas tank... let's just stay the stuff did its job. I now routinely replace my filter every six months.

Next, are you making enough fuel pressure? Later 70's QJets with the small floats are able to easily handle 7.5 - 9.5 PSI, even according to the service manual. If you're making way less then that, you may be causing fuel starvation. Simple enough to check - swap out the fuel pump to carburetor metal line with a rubber line and tee-in a fuel pressure gauge as close to the inlet as you can, just to check your fuel pressure. After you're done, you can replace the hard line.

Three, what's your float setting at? Too low, you're starving the engine for fuel, but I doubt that it can be that low. Mine is at factory setting of 17/32 which is already super low and this issue doesn't happen to me.

Four, check allover for vacuum leaks.

Not sure if the accelerator pump I am currently using is resistant to ethanol fuel like you said but I don't see the pump you are referring to on cliffs site.
The Fuel filter is brand new and the sock inside the tank is pretty clean, I can test fuel pressure today and see check.
 I replaced the float with one that come in the kit, I matched it with the factory one and I think it's sitting around 15/32. I Thought I heard 1/4 being standard in rebuilds 17 seems higher rather than lower to me but I'm not sure.
Vacuum leaks is a pretty likely thing at the moment, I am still messing with idle screws but the idle is significantly lower than when before the rebuild, I had to change idle screw a little less than a full turn. Vacuum gauge on carb manifold vacuum I get 14-15 on the gauge.

Normally Accelorator pump issues will cause an initial bog(from the momentarly lean mixture) then it'll take off and run fine when you go to WOT quickly.
Just to be clear your just starting to get into the secondaries when it happens right?

I believe its earlier than when secondary's open, if I were to accelerate normally at a stop light I would get the hesitation in first and second gear.

I’m kinda having trouble understanding the circumstances that exist to create your problem. You mention it occurs when you hood the throttle but then mention rapidly pressing the pedal. Does it occur under a load only or will it do it in park/neutral too? Just need a little more info to clarify but to be honest if you posted over at cliffs, I have no doubt you’ll reach a resolution there.

Sorry, sort of just typed all the info out quick since it was fresh in my head. Basically if you press the pedal down, my estimation is around the 2 inch mark(about the same throttle range as if you were revving it), it will bog and if you were to hold it in this spot it could eventually kill the car. It occurs any time you give it that certain amount of throttle, but it is most noticeable when parked. Essentially it is a very large hesitation that can cause the car to die out if held in that specific zone.

And if you push the pedal further than that, what happens? Will the engine not die?

I tend to lean toward an accelerator pump issue as well but I’d hold off on the other stuff suggested for the time being. I don’t like introducing too many variables when troubleshooting and honestly, if it’s not  dying when you press the pedal further than the point you described you’re probably not starving for fuel as far as fuel in the bowl.

You could try to record this happening. Upload a private video to YouTube and post. Don’t have to but it could speed up the diagnoses.

If I go further on the pedal it will hesitate for a second and be fine, stomping on the pedal to WOT after the initial hesitation point won't cause any issues either. It is simply happening in this particular zone on the throttle. Yeah I can get a video it will just be hard to see, most likely later today or tomorrow.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

Oldsschool79

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2023, 12:01:45 PM »
Zach, any chance the pull offs are not fully opening the choke?
I had a fuel supply issue on a car one time. I had to install a clear hose on the feed line to see if the pump was sucking air.  Just throwing it out there as you have an interesting problem with this one.

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2023, 01:27:52 PM »
Played around with the car today testing stuff and I am gonna rip open the carb again if you have any ideas what I should be looking for let me know. Accelerator pump does pump gas into primaries. My most recent start up had gas spewing out of somewhere, i believe it was from the pump shaft since I don’t see gas anywhere else, funny thing is it was running really good but I realized there was gas everywhere so I shut it off. Is there a chance the accelerator pump isn’t pumping far enough into the cylandier causing it to not give me enough gas? Again, still waiting on verification on cliffs forums so I am mostly using this for documentation. Appreciate all the help so far.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

phil400

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2023, 02:11:45 PM »
I've seen power pistons pop put of their bore and/or needle hung incorrectly on the float can cause issues but, Honestly Kinda stumped, you said you had the same problem before you rebuilt the carb right, so that tells me it's nothing you did wrong while rebuilding it.

I would check maybe power piston ear tab or arm whatever you want to call where the rods hang maybe bent. Also when the powe piston is staked in place that it moves freely should spring up and down with no effort just ligtly pushing on it.
Sorry not much help.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 02:22:12 PM by phil400 »
78 T/A 4 speed, original paint, match #s, mine since ‘99, 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive.
77 T/A sold
85 Monte Carlo SS sold
83 Mustang GT sold
https://youtube.com/@classicdriversgarage108

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2023, 02:30:10 PM »
Small discovery after ripping it apart again. I went to check the APT screw because I never touched it as it should be at factory settings, and it turns out it is completely bottomed out and is flush with the metal casting that the power piston pin sits on, as in the mixture is completely lean. Am I wrong that it should be roughly 3ish turns out on a 77 w72 manual, or just in any car?
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

phil400

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2023, 02:38:38 PM »
Yeah, 2~3 turns is where is should be.
78 T/A 4 speed, original paint, match #s, mine since ‘99, 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive.
77 T/A sold
85 Monte Carlo SS sold
83 Mustang GT sold
https://youtube.com/@classicdriversgarage108

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2023, 04:55:45 PM »
Yea, if you and stab the throttle to WOT without hesitation I’d imagine your accelerator pump is ok.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2023, 06:18:10 PM »
Sorry for the language but holy doo doo^ I fixed it, I ripped the carb apart for the thousandth time and looked at the APT screw like I stated earlier, decided to take it to around a conservative 2.5 turns since I didn't want to go overboard cause I am aware of the side effects/how much tuning is required. All my issues are fixed never has it scream so loud, used a vac gauge and its around 20 made sure all the mixture screws were set right. Dad came over to see and he had an insane amount of shock, thing will rip when spring comes.

Appreciate all the responses, this forum has saved me many times.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2023, 08:38:44 PM »
Awesome! Keep on keepin on man, you’re doing good!
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2023, 08:38:44 PM »

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2023, 08:53:09 PM »
Small side, question what do you guys normally idle around, at the moment mine is at the 990-1050 range and feel like it is slightly too high, I think I should be aiming for 850-900. Although my idle screw on the throttle linkage is as lose as it gets so I may need to mess with the idle mixture screws to sacrifice some vacuum for lower idles, currently at 20 hgs for vacuum so I have quite a bit of head room.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

phil400

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2023, 01:06:09 AM »
Awesome, glad you got it sorted out.
78 T/A 4 speed, original paint, match #s, mine since ‘99, 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive.
77 T/A sold
85 Monte Carlo SS sold
83 Mustang GT sold
https://youtube.com/@classicdriversgarage108

Bluebandit

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 751
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2023, 08:23:10 PM »
Idling too high, start by checking to make sure the fast idle screw on the choke side isnt holding it open and the choke is fully open. Make sure the choke pulloff is working properly. You mentioned you had gas running out, was it coming out around the throttle shafts. They can wear out and let excess air in. Spray some carb cleaner around them and see what happens. Also look around for a vacuum leak somewhere, that can increase the idle speed

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2023, 09:28:28 PM »
Idling too high, start by checking to make sure the fast idle screw on the choke side isnt holding it open and the choke is fully open. Make sure the choke pulloff is working properly. You mentioned you had gas running out, was it coming out around the throttle shafts. They can wear out and let excess air in. Spray some carb cleaner around them and see what happens. Also look around for a vacuum leak somewhere, that can increase the idle speed

Yeah it is idling a bit too high, choke is fully open and it isn't being affected by fast idle. I can lower it to around 800 now but it isn't very reliable, if I blip the throttle it will raise RPMs but on the way down there's a good chance it will die out. Only vacuum leak that I can really think of would be either the PCV valve/grommit (it is really old) or just the carb leaking. The gas pouring out was around the accelerator pump shaft but it hasn't done that after swapping to a thicker gasket. My guess is the throttle shafts have too much play in them, I didn't do anything besides clean them, most likely need bushings.

Edit: I also should mention I have yet to put the air cleaner on and seal it off so a lot of this will more than likely change, I was just focusing on getting it running.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 09:52:50 PM by Zach »
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2023, 05:58:39 PM »
Update, still losing my mind on this supposed vacuum leak. The car is running spectacular especially compared to before the rebuild, was basically missing a leg. I just know it should idle lower, idle screw is completely out and its at around 900 rpm. Sprayed carb cleaner and got no results. Gonna take a break for a few days and come back to it.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

phil400

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2023, 06:57:12 PM »
Are you running Vacuum advance off full manifold source or ported/timed source?
78 T/A 4 speed, original paint, match #s, mine since ‘99, 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive.
77 T/A sold
85 Monte Carlo SS sold
83 Mustang GT sold
https://youtube.com/@classicdriversgarage108

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2023, 09:05:28 PM »
Are you running Vacuum advance off full manifold source or ported/timed source?

I believe it’s manifold, coming from passenger side TVs on the block. All lines are stock except for removing the exhaust valve and plugging that line. Set up identical to attached image.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2023, 09:42:59 PM »
Did you happen to remove any of the throttle blades during your rebuild?

 If you suspect a vacuum leak, while idling, place your hand over the air horn and see what happens. If your idle raises, you probably do have a vacuum leak somewhere as covering the air horn effectively richens the currently lean mixture due to the vacuum leak. If no leak, you might get a small increase but the engine should otherwise start to want to die.

Also, have you verified what your timing is set at?
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2023, 10:05:54 PM »
Did you happen to remove any of the throttle blades during your rebuild?

 If you suspect a vacuum leak, while idling, place your hand over the air horn and see what happens. If your idle raises, you probably do have a vacuum leak somewhere as covering the air horn effectively richens the currently lean mixture due to the vacuum leak. If no leak, you might get a small increase but the engine should otherwise start to want to die.

Also, have you verified what your timing is set at?

I did not touch the throttle blades but noticed there was not any noticeable play during the rebuild, if I end up having to take the carb off again I will add bushings just incase. Placing my hand over the carb varies oddly, it was raising RPMs quite a bit initially but then I secured some things and such and it seems to be gone, now it is more likely to idle slower with my hand over the air horn but it is a very small change. Timing I will have to check tomorrow, not sure the correct wordage but last I remember it was set at 18 degrees, per factory recommendations via a light, and then the distributer was rotated and tuned by hearing a few months ago haven't touched it since rebuild.

Side note,  Cliff verified me and I posted on his forums a few minutes ago so hopefully I find a solution somewhere.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2023, 11:15:21 PM »
If the air horn thing is as you described you may not have a vacuum leak then. The throttle blade question was in case you removed and reinstalled the blades, you need to make sure they close tightly in the bore. The can be finicky. Ask me how I know lol. If you, or someone else didn’t, I’d hold off on bushings so as to not introduce any more variables for now.

If you say timing was set to factory 18° before too dead center (BTDC) but the timing was then adjusted by ear, I’d start back there. Verify initial timing is set at 18° at around 775 rpm (I think, don’t quote me). Vacuum advance disconnected and the vacuum line plugged. See where you end up idle wise.

Is your engine otherwise stock or does it have a different cam?
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2023, 11:15:21 PM »

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2023, 11:37:54 PM »
If the air horn thing is as you described you may not have a vacuum leak then. The throttle blade question was in case you removed and reinstalled the blades, you need to make sure they close tightly in the bore. The can be finicky. Ask me how I know lol. If you, or someone else didn’t, I’d hold off on bushings so as to not introduce any more variables for now.

If you say timing was set to factory 18° before too dead center (BTDC) but the timing was then adjusted by ear, I’d start back there. Verify initial timing is set at 18° at around 775 rpm (I think, don’t quote me). Vacuum advance disconnected and the vacuum line plugged. See where you end up idle wise.

Is your engine otherwise stock or does it have a different cam?

Completely stock w72 400, I'll give the timing a shot either tomorrow or in the following days. Looks like you are correct on the factory timing specs by the way,  thanks for the help so far.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2023, 12:29:35 AM »
Ripped into the distributer too make sure it all looks good before I go to timing, new cap and rotor within the past 2 years. Apparently we forgot to turn 1 of the 4 screws holding it on which probably wasn't ideal. Another question, how mobile are the spinning weights supposed to be, turning the bracket below them is quite sluggish and requires quite a bit of force to make them both fully spread out, but the weights themselves move relatively smooth, but require a tiny bit of force. Just curious how much force is too much. Cleaning wise what is safe to do, they seem to be slightly rusted but no grinding or anything between the surfaces. Also after taking a look at the timing tab, it barely goes to 16 how can I reliably time to 18 degrees btdc, just eye ball it?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 01:19:50 AM by Zach »
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2023, 02:02:38 PM »
This has now become a progress thread. Timing is set correctly and was only a degree or so off. My mind is back to vacuum leak somewhere, hand over air horn does not cause a surge but idle remains steady so air is getting somewhere. Haven't got many answers from Cliffs forum yet but someone suggested I check the throttle plates and make sure they fully close, I believe they are but I'll rip the carb off and check again.

Can anyone tell me the correct gasket order for a 1977 trans am? currently I have the metal plate on the manifold with the cylinder's walls on the plate going in towards the manifold, then the thick gasket, then the carb. This is how it came off originally, and the gasket won't fit in the reverse order.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

phil400

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2023, 05:01:57 PM »
This has now become a progress thread. Timing is set correctly and was only a degree or so off. My mind is back to vacuum leak somewhere, hand over air horn does not cause a surge but idle remains steady so air is getting somewhere. Haven't got many answers from Cliffs forum yet but someone suggested I check the throttle plates and make sure they fully close, I believe they are but I'll rip the carb off and check again.

Can anyone tell me the correct gasket order for a 1977 trans am? currently I have the metal plate on the manifold with the cylinder's walls on the plate going in towards the manifold, then the thick gasket, then the carb. This is how it came off originally, and the gasket won't fit in the reverse order.

That is the correct order for the gasket, tin plate goes on manifold and is for EGR valve.
78 T/A 4 speed, original paint, match #s, mine since ‘99, 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive.
77 T/A sold
85 Monte Carlo SS sold
83 Mustang GT sold
https://youtube.com/@classicdriversgarage108

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2023, 01:01:27 AM »
Looks like it has to do with the amount of air coming through my throttle plates, Cliff suggested this too. Kind of sucks since I don't have the tools available to do it myself but I will see what I can come up with before I think about shipping it out.

Thanks again for all the help on this thread, I get a lot of my knowledge from here.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2023, 09:06:44 AM »
Although I read your post on Cliffs site, I’m not a member there, so I can’t see the pictures you posted, but it sounds like the one member was suggesting adjusting the linkage first. If you’re talking about actually repositioning the throttle blades what tools are you thinking you’ll need that you’re lacking? Cliff certainly would get it done right if you sent it to him and I know he doesn’t do full rebuilds anymore but I’m not sure what he charges either.it’s not overly hard though. I rebuilt my carb and installed throttle shaft bushings. You already tore your carb apart several times so I have faith you could accomplish this.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2023, 02:37:31 PM »
Although I read your post on Cliffs site, I’m not a member there, so I can’t see the pictures you posted, but it sounds like the one member was suggesting adjusting the linkage first. If you’re talking about actually repositioning the throttle blades what tools are you thinking you’ll need that you’re lacking? Cliff certainly would get it done right if you sent it to him and I know he doesn’t do full rebuilds anymore but I’m not sure what he charges either.it’s not overly hard though. I rebuilt my carb and installed throttle shaft bushings. You already tore your carb apart several times so I have faith you could accomplish this.

Yeah, I can try to adjust the linkage but my main concern is the primary throttle blades. It seems like they have quite a lot of air gaps around them and I am wondering if it will require more then just reseating the blades. I will try to fix it myself first but I might need to send it out if I can't get them perfect. I think Cliff charges 60 + I have to pay shipping.
I will attach pictures too.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2023, 02:40:30 PM »
Here are the pictures. You aren't supposed to see any light, or at least very little.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

b_hill_86

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2135
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2023, 03:23:28 PM »
Here’s a video of mine for comparison after I reinstalled them during the bushing install. I did have to adjust them twice as I thought the first time was tight enough and now that I think about it I had an issue with it idling too high as well. . https://youtube.com/shorts/wPX6HFxdrcE?feature=share

There isn’t a lot to closing those gaps. You just have to remember those little screws have the ends smushed (I can’t remember the term off hand) to prevent them from backing out and falling down into your intake so you have to grind the end off before you remove them or they’ll likely break. Not hard to do with a dremmel. Just don’t forget to do that again with new screws.
-Brian-

1977 Trans Am 400 4 speed

nUcLeArEnVoY

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 702
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2023, 01:44:08 PM »
Honestly, dude, those air gaps look normal, assuming the throttle lever is touching your idle speed screw. You have to have them open at least a little bit for the car to run. Is that photo with your primary throttle plates COMPLETELY closed, as in, no idle speed screw limiting their travel? If so, then yes, that's too much gap - send it out to get fixed by a pro.

You may have to have your throttle plates rebushed, and honestly, like I said, I'd send the throttle plate out for that service to Cliff or maybe Mike at QuadrajetPower. If you mess it up, it's game over. It's common for quadrajets to have worn primary throttle shafts, which allows for air leaks. Secondary throttle shafts don't need to be rebushed, especially since it's important that they aren't "too tight" as to allow the large secondary butterflies to properly close. Spray some carb cleaner in those areas while the car is running and see if it changes your idle. Did you spray all around the intake to see if it causes a fluctuation in idle? Also, try opening the secondary air valves while at idle and see if that makes a change - and by air valve, I mean the ones at the top you can actually see and are opened by vacuum. While at idle speed, if you manually push down the secondary air valves, it shouldn't make any difference in idle since the secondaries should be fully closed tight. If there is a change in idle speed, then the issue is with your secondary throttle plates not fully seating closed.

Also, what emissions equipment are you using? If all your emissions crap is still hooked up and your car is running hot, there is a very remote possibility that your DS-TVS is adding timing to your idle like it's designed to do when the sensor detects a coolant temp of around 205+. By adding timing, it speeds up the idle, therefore water pump circulation - plus, more timing at idle typically makes the car run cooler. This is very unlikely and would only make sense if you're running hot while the idle is high, and you have all your emissions equipment hooked up.

Finally, what tension springs do you have in your distributor? If you have those crapola "light" springs (usually copper in color) out of those recurve kits, it's possible that you're adding timing at idle that you shouldn't be adding. Stock distributor springs are usually very heavy and stiff as to prevent this - as in, when you rev up the engine and return to idle, it returns to where it should. If the springs are too light, you'll create a positive feedback loop that ends up raising your idle speed once you rev up the motor. The point of those light springs is to have your mechanical advance come in early for performance, but they're not very practical for street-driven cars. The ONLY timing that should be present at idle is your base timing setting (which for your W72 should be 18 degrees BTDC), which is set WITHOUT VACUUM ADVANCE, and then your vacuum advance on top of that if you're using manifold vacuum. And you need a timing light to correctly set timing.

One more thing - the only reason you're making that healthy 20 or so inches of vacuum at idle is BECAUSE you're idling so high. Once you get your idle down to a reasonable level, you'll probably end up seeing 16-17" on the vac gauge, which is still perfectly healthy.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 10:09:32 AM by nUcLeArEnVoY »
1979 Trans Am 400/4-Speed W72/WS6 - Starlight Black Hardtop

Maryland Bandit

  • Jedi Council
  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18543
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2023, 05:19:32 PM »
Your APT setting should be bottom out then 1.5-2 turns up. Sounds like you found it though.

tajoe

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5264
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2023, 04:20:54 PM »
Interesting thread. Seems like it's staggent right now, but think I'll toss in my 2 cents. (Is there a "cents" symbol on these keys? I don't see one)

Anyway, most will tell you, when a QJ is operating/idling correctly, the throttle blades are suppose to be in the middle of the part throttle slots in the base plates. there is some wiggle room, but if your blades are "above" those slots, you could get a temporary bog, hi idle, and possibly even some nozzle drip.
I was able to fix a nozzle drip from a Chevy carb I did for my warmed over 428 many years ago. Went deep into the carb to cure the drip, and ended up changing to an entirely different carb that had air idle bypass. No matter how much I lowered the mech. throttle screw to close off the air, (on the 1st QJ), the car would run like crap. Even tried drilling holes in the plates, (which did nothing more than aggravate the drip). Once I ripped the guts out of it, and installed them into the other carb, problem solved. Could even get it to idle down as low as 600, with the 041 cam. (I miss that eng., and carb)

Not saying this is relevant to you, and by the photos above, it looks like your blades are positioned OK, at least from the angle I'm looking at. Just something to consider when troubleshooting. Good job so far. Wondering how much help Cliff has been? i hear he's a busy guy.
"You can sell an old man a young mans car,
but you can't sell a young man an old mans car"
                                       Bunkie Knudsen
<

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2023, 01:46:28 PM »
Interesting thread. Seems like it's staggent right now, but think I'll toss in my 2 cents. (Is there a "cents" symbol on these keys? I don't see one)

Anyway, most will tell you, when a QJ is operating/idling correctly, the throttle blades are suppose to be in the middle of the part throttle slots in the base plates. there is some wiggle room, but if your blades are "above" those slots, you could get a temporary bog, hi idle, and possibly even some nozzle drip.
I was able to fix a nozzle drip from a Chevy carb I did for my warmed over 428 many years ago. Went deep into the carb to cure the drip, and ended up changing to an entirely different carb that had air idle bypass. No matter how much I lowered the mech. throttle screw to close off the air, (on the 1st QJ), the car would run like crap. Even tried drilling holes in the plates, (which did nothing more than aggravate the drip). Once I ripped the guts out of it, and installed them into the other carb, problem solved. Could even get it to idle down as low as 600, with the 041 cam. (I miss that eng., and carb)

Not saying this is relevant to you, and by the photos above, it looks like your blades are positioned OK, at least from the angle I'm looking at. Just something to consider when troubleshooting. Good job so far. Wondering how much help Cliff has been? i hear he's a busy guy.

Thread is currently dead cause of procrastination and shipping. Took me a week to send out the carb, Cliff fixed it up real quick and has been very responsive, shipping is currently taking longer than his labor. Carb should be hear in the next day or so then I'll see what progress that made. Another thing that I need to check more thoroughly is the intake manifold gasket but don't want to take that apart unless I need to.

Your APT setting should be bottom out then 1.5-2 turns up. Sounds like you found it though.

Yep, figured my carb was untouched prior to our ownership but no ones ever seen an APT screw bottomed out on a factory carb. I brought it up 2.5ish turns and it immediately ran better and had no more bogging on acceleration, was my whole issue. After I fix the carb I will most likely tap the plug and do more APT adjusting.

Honestly, dude, those air gaps look normal, assuming the throttle lever is touching your idle speed screw. You have to have them open at least a little bit for the car to run. Is that photo with your primary throttle plates COMPLETELY closed, as in, no idle speed screw limiting their travel? If so, then yes, that's too much gap - send it out to get fixed by a pro.

You may have to have your throttle plates rebushed, and honestly, like I said, I'd send the throttle plate out for that service to Cliff or maybe Mike at QuadrajetPower. If you mess it up, it's game over. It's common for quadrajets to have worn primary throttle shafts, which allows for air leaks. Secondary throttle shafts don't need to be rebushed, especially since it's important that they aren't "too tight" as to allow the large secondary butterflies to properly close. Spray some carb cleaner in those areas while the car is running and see if it changes your idle. Did you spray all around the intake to see if it causes a fluctuation in idle? Also, try opening the secondary air valves while at idle and see if that makes a change - and by air valve, I mean the ones at the top you can actually see and are opened by vacuum. While at idle speed, if you manually push down the secondary air valves, it shouldn't make any difference in idle since the secondaries should be fully closed tight. If there is a change in idle speed, then the issue is with your secondary throttle plates not fully seating closed.

Also, what emissions equipment are you using? If all your emissions crap is still hooked up and your car is running hot, there is a very remote possibility that your DS-TVS is adding timing to your idle like it's designed to do when the sensor detects a coolant temp of around 205+. By adding timing, it speeds up the idle, therefore water pump circulation - plus, more timing at idle typically makes the car run cooler. This is very unlikely and would only make sense if you're running hot while the idle is high, and you have all your emissions equipment hooked up.

Finally, what tension springs do you have in your distributor? If you have those crapola "light" springs (usually copper in color) out of those recurve kits, it's possible that you're adding timing at idle that you shouldn't be adding. Stock distributor springs are usually very heavy and stiff as to prevent this - as in, when you rev up the engine and return to idle, it returns to where it should. If the springs are too light, you'll create a positive feedback loop that ends up raising your idle speed once you rev up the motor. The point of those light springs is to have your mechanical advance come in early for performance, but they're not very practical for street-driven cars. The ONLY timing that should be present at idle is your base timing setting (which for your W72 should be 18 degrees BTDC), which is set WITHOUT VACUUM ADVANCE, and then your vacuum advance on top of that if you're using manifold vacuum. And you need a timing light to correctly set timing.

One more thing - the only reason you're making that healthy 20 or so inches of vacuum at idle is BECAUSE you're idling so high. Once you get your idle down to a reasonable level, you'll probably end up seeing 16-17" on the vac gauge, which is still perfectly healthy.


Yep, completely closed. Sent it out to cliff since he has a pretty solid price and I'd rather not accidentally wreck mine. I checked for vacuum leaks with carb cleaner but didn't do manifold thoroughly that could still be a variable. From memory I don't think the secondaries had any affect on idle when manually opening them. I still have all the factory emissions stuff hooked up except the exhaust valve, vacuum line plugged. I have a real nice aluminum rad from a friend, car never goes over 180ish?, what ever the 1/4 line is on the gauge. Distributer has stock springs and weights, cleaned them up during this session, they seem to be pretty stiff and heavy, not light. Timing was set correctly. Yeah, was slow on realizing vacuum is correlated to RPM but I figured it out quickly after my first messages.

Carb will be here in a few days and I will post another update, appreciate all the help and info.
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

rkellerjr

  • Oracle Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6757
  • When you turn your car on does it return the favor
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2023, 07:33:49 AM »
Great thread, I don't do carbs, mine was done by a local guy I know but this sure was an interesting read. Glad to see your probably on the other side of this issue Zach. Can be very frustrating trying to figure out these gremlins.

Zach

  • Active Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2023, 12:46:01 PM »
Well, I got the carb back today and throttle shaft is a lot more solid.

Issue still remains, no change in performance from before and after the rebuild. I have a vacuum leak somewhere and I cannot find it. Putting my hand over the primaries and completely suffocating it causes no change in idle speed or anything noticeable. Curb idle screw completely out, idle mixture screws set to best I can get at the moment 3ish turns out. Making around 16ish vacuum at 1000 rpm. Only places I can think of are bad gaskets on the carb, they are brand new. Brake booster, brand new, but I can try disconnecting it from the vacuum and plugging it. Intake manifold gasket has been on there for a while, I can try spraying more carb cleaner later. Spraying carb cleaner anywhere else doesn't reveal anything, I've replace most things on it, vacuum lines, PCV valve, etc. not sure what else to do. Could the APT screw cause a higher idle? It was bottomed out so I am unsure where it is supposed to be, did 2.5ish turns and it fixed my original acceleration issue but I am wondering if it needs tuning for idle or if its only for cruising air/fuel.

Just a bit annoyed, going on vacation to the Dominican in a few days so I wont be able to test anything. I appreciate all the help so far.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 01:41:31 PM by Zach »
1977 #s W72 400 4 Speed Trans Am
1971 351c 4 Speed Mustang Mach 1

Re: Carburetor Issue
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2023, 12:46:01 PM »
You can help support TAC!