Author Topic: low pedal front calipers  (Read 2888 times)

aussieta

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low pedal front calipers
« on: December 10, 2022, 06:30:21 PM »
hi guys and girls
1978 Trans Am
factory disc front, drum rear
when i bought the car the front calipers were extremely rusted internally
looked like previous owner was using water instead of brake fluid lol
lightly sanded inner bore with 400 grit wet and dry sandpaper
new pistons and seals
car has always had a brake pedal lower than i would like
have bled the system probably 10 times in 20 years
as it is getting into the warmer weather here in australia
i decided to finally get to the bottom of the low brake pedal
so measured flexible hoses relaxed and maximum pressure. 0.2mm change in od, so eliminated them as cause
then blocked outlet port to rear brakes from proportional valve, no change
then blocked both front outlet ports to front brakes from proportional valve, pedal is high and hard as a rock
so front calipers are causing the low pedal
master cylinder is right stuff DBMC01, 1.125" bore
booster to master cylinder pushrod is adjusted to only just clearance
any ideas where i go from here
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2022, 05:32:46 PM »
does anyone know much about low drag calipers
and quick take up master cylinders
i am starting to think calipers may have been swapped out by an earlier owner
does anyone know how to identify them
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2023, 05:24:34 PM »
for anybody that finds this in the future
this was a dog to diagnose
i had never heard of these low drag calipers
externally, they are identical to standard D52 calipers
internally the square cut seal groove is machined slightly differently
https://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/brakesystem/hydraulic/disassembly/calipers/pdfs/mpbrakes_lowdrag.pdf
http://www.remaninc.com/pdfs/lowdragcalipers.pdf
sometime in the past my car must have had some reco calipers fitted
the fix, wilwood calipers
https://www.wilwood.com/Search/PartNoSearch?q=140-11291
note, these use a 7/16 banjo, so i went with their stainless flex hoses
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

Bale9

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2023, 09:13:49 PM »
Hi Aussie

I think that i have a similar issue to you... Struggling to get a pedal.

I purchased all standard brakes from my 79 TA including repro front/rear calipers, booster, master cyl and prop valve.

Found that my prop valve leaked via the switch, so i replaced both MC and prop valve with new ones and again it leaked via the switch and poor pedal, so i'm suspecting it's not the prop valve causing the leak and likely prop valve leaking as a result of something else.

I'm going to investigate if my front calipers are low drag or not.

Did you pull them a part to check the seals and caliper bore groove?

I'm also in Australia, where did you get the Willwood stuff from and what arrangement do you have so that I may replicate?

thanks

Bill


scarebird

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2023, 09:44:34 PM »
When I did brake stuff I found 95% of the time the customer still had air in the system.

Use a pneumatic vacuum bleeder, and at least a quart of fluid.

Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2023, 09:44:34 PM »

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2023, 09:46:49 PM »
Must be Aussie hour. I couldn't reply via your Fbook post, Bill, Fbook doesn't allow me to post anything these days lol. Engine bay looks great btw.
I also have the Wilwood D52 on mine, not sure why, never had an issue. They look ok just sitting there. Having said that, there shouldn't be fluid getting past the p-valve seals regardless. When there's a pressure fault, front to rear, whatever, it kicks the inner valve to one side triggering the switch. I have only heard of it when the unit is old and seals likewise, not when also a new unit. I'm not sure if that says it is faulty, or like you say, possibly a sign of something else going on and sucking air into the system somewhere. You bled from furthest point forward?

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2023, 10:09:08 PM »
i bought my wilwoods from summit racing
bled the crap out of the brakes, vacuum bleeder, gravity bleed, helper press pedal and hold down
tried everything
maybe 2 litres each time, 1 bottle for each wheel
and bled them every 2 years, car has done 10,000km in 27 years
one thing i found, factory pushrod from pedal to booster is not adjustable
so if you have Right hand drive with 3mm plate firewall
you lose 3mm travel on pedal straight off the bat
the change in the calipers is so minor, without engineering drawing , i doubt it can be measured
still not 100% happy
using dual diaphragm 7" booster, mounted horizontal
looking at going to 9" dual diaphragm, angled mount
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2023, 10:38:04 PM »
Had no dramas bleeding mine, no one to help, just bleeder with one way valve and making sure plenty of fluid. I modified both my pedal and booster rod to be adjustable and match other pedal heights. I get bored easily. Explains half why car is in boxes.
Bill, check the casting numbers on the calipers, might be easier to ID before pulling apart to inspect. Master cylinders are cheap,  I'd try another.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 10:42:52 PM by Wallington »

Bale9

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2023, 11:58:20 PM »
Scarebird - I went a bit crazy with bleeding, i disconnected the MC and run a tall hose with a funnel and just kept pouring brake fluid in... I used a vacuum bleeder then i rigged up a tool to pressurise the MC to push the air through. Same result.


Ben - Good to hear from you... Tried 2 x new MC, unless I'm unlucky enough to get to dud's... I'll check the casting numbers on all 4 x calipers when i can to see what is going on. I found a photo of the calipers when i installed them...

Aussie - Mine is LHD and i'm running a larger angle 11" booster... did you upgrade your complete brake system or just the calipers?


Besides Wilwood, is there any other brake manufacturer that installs onto our Firebirds? Without huge mods...

« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 09:02:31 PM by Bale9 »

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2023, 12:06:35 AM »
Oh, the calipers have already been changed. I'm not sure what that would tell you unless googling what's on them and seeing applications. Fancy gold.
Just noticed the MC also has the extra ports up top. I've never had to use one of them, or bleed one. How are they capped off? Just regular bleeders like on the calipers? Wouldn't hurt also to keep any eye out for any fluid weeping from any of them, after the initial bleeding and wiping dry, to see if you got a bad one somewhere.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 12:08:38 AM by Wallington »

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2023, 01:52:23 AM »
originally ran the single 11" booster
but the master cyl hit on a "hood" cross brace
then went to horizontal 7" dual booster
and rod from pedal did not like the angle and kept leaving brake lights on
so fitted rod to the higher pin position
used for manual boosted brakes
just waiting on some angled brackets to fit 9" dual and lower pin again
one thing
my car did not have a pedal return spring, when i bought it
so i have fitted one
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2023, 03:13:06 AM »
They mount at 17 degrees. I made a custom shim plate to strengthen where it mounted and to tilt it. The conversion had the firewall vertical, stock was angled downwards slightly.

Return springs were not used, but if it helps, all good. The brake light switch works in such a way that it can be in the wrong location, or custom and still work the same. Basically, they are self-adjusting. You pull the brake pedal back as far as it will go towards the seat. That is also pushing the switch button in and moving the body if needed too when it bottoms out. From there any time the pedal goes forward, it also activates the lights as button released. Perhaps the pedal was hanging a little, bouncing the button, hence the spring. Whatever works. I realise you likely know all this!

Bill, you mentioned elsewhere that it has a new rubber rear hose as the braided didn't fit. Unrelated but do you recall what was wrong with the braided, or brand etc? I had one years ago, found it didn't fit, wrong length I think, can't recall. I then picked up a replacement, lost it. Ordered another, lost it. Did the brakes, forgot I hadn't done the rear hose, found them all later. I think I have a few variations there, was wondering if yours was the same as any.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 03:25:56 AM by Wallington »

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2023, 03:24:08 AM »
76-81 parts manual shows return spring item 4.639, page 4-134
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

scarebird

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2023, 01:52:11 PM »
...using dual diaphragm 7" booster, mounted horizontal
looking at going to 9" dual diaphragm, angled mount

Toss the 7" in the rubbish - too small for low vacuum motors

Scarebird - I went a bit crazy with bleeding, i disconnected the MC and run a tall hose with a funnel and just kept pouring brake fluid in... I used a vacuum bleeder then i rigged up a tool to pressurise the MC to push the air through. Same result.

I did the "IV" setup once - could not stop the fluid leakage out the master lid.

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2023, 05:51:18 AM »
76-81 parts manual shows return spring item 4.639, page 4-134

Yes, and is for manual brake vehicles, no Power Brakes. Regardless, did you find you liked the pedal feel better with the added spring? I see the springs are easily available as repros #3850084, while the extension tab off the clevis pin, not so much #3841645.

https://cdn3.volusion.com/klmat.yytxn/v/vspfiles/photos/PPD-831B-3.jpg?v-cache=1544265084
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 05:56:27 AM by Wallington »

Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2023, 05:51:18 AM »

TA301

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2023, 04:14:07 PM »
If the safety/secondary brake system is not working or not adjusted, that will certainly affect brake pedal feel and travel.

Bale9

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2023, 04:34:43 PM »
Hi All

I have an update on my low pedal issue.

I ended up replacing the prop valve again... This means I had the original new one which leaked through the switch, so I replaced the prop valve again with another new one which leaked again through the switch... So I went down a big rabbit hole trying to work out what i was doing wrong thinking the chances of two consecutive new prop valves leaking meant it's not the prop valve...

After a long winded ordeal I replaced the prop valve again, this time no leaks.... Pedal seems to be better, so I'm thinking that the leaking prop valve switch was pulling in some air and i could never get it to bleed correctly.

Also I'm thinking that i need to take the car for a drive, please not that my car has not seen the road at all and have a complete new brake system. Once i go for a drive and bed the new brake pads in i'm hoping it will be 100%.


Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2023, 10:45:33 PM »
Good news, Bill. Did you end up with the brass block type now?

Yes, the spring is just an aid to an already correct setup. Once accustomed to it then any loss in booster pressure should be still apparent as slightly different. That and the fact you aren't stopping!

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2023, 01:39:26 AM »
9" booster mounted horizontal hit on steering column shaft bolt
have bought a new 11" booster
and cut and threaded the input shaft to make it adjustable
will then go back to the lower position on the pedal
just need some me time
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 01:41:11 AM by aussieta »
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2023, 02:07:32 AM »
LHD or RHD? Exactly horizontal or tilted 17 degrees?

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2023, 12:42:17 AM »
rhd
dual diaphragm have all been horizontal
11" single diaphragm are usually 21 degrees
i will be aiming for 10-15 degrees to clear bonnet (hood) and steering column and rocker cover
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2023, 05:37:39 AM »
That's makes more sense, not a lot of clearance when not angled. Or as you mentioned, no clearance. My original RHD booster had assorted shims of unknown, unrecorded sizes. I replaced them again with a flame cut shim and to match the 17 degrees GM mention in their literature. Others report 17-22 degrees, I figure any more and it get close to hood that is not currently installed. It works so far, go with that! Your firewall is probably similar to mine and perfectly square, the stock LHD firewall mounting pad was tilted down slightly so a stock mounted booster with angled mount ends up poking up at a nasty angle that wasn't apparent moments before! I can't comment on the fancy brake setups, other than making convo.

aussieta

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2023, 01:50:55 AM »
thanks wallington
i forgot the firewall was not flat before
i have a selection of pinion shims which will be getting modified
when i can have my car off the road for a week or so
1978 Y84 W72 WS6
A Camaro looks like it could kick your ass.
A Trans Am looks like it's coming over to do it

Wallington

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Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2023, 04:43:48 AM »
I'd also forgot. Went to bolt back up after some time apart and thought I'd been sent the wrong booster with crazy bracket angle, always expect dramas somehow!
I've since added this plate as well, feels beefier with it sandwiched and tying all 4 points together in an area that's likely just a few flat layers on converted firewalls rather than a pressed mount.

https://afterdarkspeed.com/product/gm-muscle-car-brake-booster-master-cylinder-doubler-plate/

Re: low pedal front calipers
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2023, 04:43:48 AM »
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