84 301T

[tajoe]

"Yee Haw!!!, Jester is Dead!" LOL (Cool pic SB.)
Good to know about the torque arm, but I'm pretty sure this'll be my 1st and last 3rd gen. I have enuff, "spare parts" coagulated in my garage, and after 35 yrs of storage, will soon wanna thin out the heard...(on some stuff. Some I'll take to my grave.) I'm not too happy to be storing the crap 305 on the floor, and all the TH700 swap over parts. Sure don't want any more spare parts. just the ones to keep it running.

As for selling them, I usually have that idea, and the parts will be "temporarily" stored....for about 20 yrs or more, and never get sold. I just haven't made the time to do such things, cause everything I have is worth more, at least cleaned up, if not rebuilt. And I just never make the time to do that.
 Just lost an hr today, stuck at a TSC, with the Mrs., cause the 4 yr old batteries, in my 93 2500 6.2 diesel stake bed, just crapped out. Fortunately, (after I had them tested ) TSC had them inside, on their shelves, (at a cost of $360 ). Always seems to be something else to fix, such as my leaky garbage disposer, that if I was thinking straight, would've bought a new one when I was out. slipped my mind, for some reason.

[scarebird]

A good parts stash is not a bad thing.   

If the 1983 torque arm is "backwards" to what you have the idea of cutting and rotating the arm with a plate would fix that too.

[tajoe]

A good parts stash is not a bad thing.   

If the 1983 torque arm is "backwards" to what you have the idea of cutting and rotating the arm with a plate would fix that too.

A good parts stash is bad, when every available space allocated is full, and causes them to sit out-side, under tarps. I hear what you're sayin SB, and it must mean you have quite the storage facility. I envy you. But it's amazing what you can accumulate after almost 50 yrs of collecting.

My 84 T/A's torque arm will bolt originally as intended to the back of this T5. (With minor trimming of the mount bosses that are crooked because of the tilted tranny. I'm not as concerned with that. as I am with making the rear mount straight. But I'll keep you guys posted on how that comes to be. (Once I can get back into the garage.)

[scarebird]

Good or bad - we are all enjoying your build as it is highly unusual and was a real option for GM to pursue in the dawn of the 3rd Gens F's.

[ryeguy2006a]

Glad that you found a WC T5! I learned something new too because I looked up how to identify a WC vs. non-WC. I'll keep an eye out at swap meets now. 

[tajoe]

Good or bad - we are all enjoying your build as it is highly unusual and was a real option for GM to pursue in the dawn of the 3rd Gens F's.

Thanks SB, I think it would be kinda cool to see this "tribute" car materialize too. Do I wish I were able to make it "exactly" the way Pontiac would've been mandated by GM corporate/EPA? With it's smoke grinder, EGR, and everything else? Maybe, if I had all that crap. But I don't, and am not spending my precious time looking and paying for it. Junk I would've ripped off, if I ever owned it, back in the day anyway.

And I'm not sure if you guys have seen this video, that's been out there quite a few years. The narrator is a bit monotone, but his channel does do some neat videos. I was glad to stumble across this one, because it was my idea to put this car together, before I knew it existed. Some-one might've already posted it, but I'll do it again, just for GPs, or those that haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iovohEChv10

Glad that you found a WC T5! I learned something new too because I looked up how to identify a WC vs. non-WC. I'll keep an eye out at swap meets now. 

I too am still learning about this tranny RG, and according to Paul Cangialosi is the longest running tranny ever built in the history of the automobile. Once again, when it was 1st put into production in the early 80s, it wasn't a very reliable tranny. Even tho it was used in quite a few applications. Ford modified it into the WC in 85, (GM not till 88) which was a big improvement, yet it still wasn't a superduty transmission. I rate it like the Muncie was back in the day. The muncie was nothing, compared to the Ford top-loader, or even the Mopar New Process A833. But that being said, I never had too many complaints with the Muncies I had behind my goats, and T/As. Then again, (all but 1) never had slicks on them. I'm hoping the WC T5 will run like that. Good for a street driver, but be cautious at the track.
Still deciding when and "if" I rebuild this T5, with at least new bearings, seals ,and syncros. And maybe even some after-market heavy duty gears. One step at a time.

[ryeguy2006a]

If you decide to rebuild it, there is a place in NJ I think called Hanlon Motorsports that works with T5 transmissions who may be able to help you beef it up a little more. I bought my TR6060 mainshaft from them when the parts were unobtainium online.

[tajoe]

Good to know RG. Thanks for that. I see racing gear-sets for over a grand, but a place called "The Gear Box Shop" outta SC, has a set of gears for less than $600. (Think I might've mentioned it above). But at that price, I don't know if they're stock replacement, or even Chinese. It looks like a good quality overhaul kit, (less gears) costs less than $400, includings syncros. I'll probably just do that, depending what the internals look like. I'll open it up soon, just to gander inside, but really wanna get the slave cylinder mounted..."some-how", 1st.

When I open up the T5, I might pull the tailhousing and compare it to the NWC in the car now. Some-one said the 2 are not interchangeable, but I'm not sure. If they are the same, I might play around with the crooked mount, and see about altering it, for straight up mounting. Or, try and find another tailhousing that has it straight, with the shifter mounted at the rear, like all the F-bodys had. The Mustangs, GM Asto-vans, and S-10s, had the shifter mount on the tailhousing further fwd.

[ryeguy2006a]

Instead of milling the mount straight, could you just make something with the opposite angle to make the pad flat? Seems like that would be an easier solution.

[scarebird]

I still believe welding/twisting the arm is the simplest solution.

[tajoe]

Instead of milling the mount straight, could you just make something with the opposite angle to make the pad flat? Seems like that would be an easier solution.

RG, were you spying on me today. I literally just came from a home machinist in town, and talked to him about making a wedge, rather than machining the tail housing. The best case scenario would be to find another tailhousing that was straight, with the shifter in the rear. I haven't found that application, (yet), but supposedly these trannys were in "hundreds" of vehicles over the years, and I'm trying to find a listing that might pin point something like that. For now, I think I'll make a wooden wedge "template", just to see how it works, and maybe give that to the machinist to make for me. Then in the future, if I ever find a better tailhousing, I can swap it out. Good thought tho.

I still believe welding/twisting the arm is the simplest solution.

SB, are you confusing the torque arm mount with the tranny lower mount? To the crossmember? That's what I'm working on right now. I haven't even gotten to the torque arm yet, but will definitely take that idea into consideration. Thanks.

[scarebird]

Torque arm mount. 

[tajoe]

The week-end is almost here, and I'll be taking some time off-a work to get something accomplished on the 84. Plan is to
1-make a template "wedge" to mount the tranny mount straight
2-start researching the best way to mount the slave
3-open up the top of the T5, just to examine the guts
Pics to follow....(enjoy your Friday. )

[tajoe]

 Finally got away from home duties, and got some garage time...on the 84. And I'm a bit pumped.
I believe the wedge idea will work, and it turns out it has the possibilities of being better than I had expected. I think most of you, (the 2 of you), realize the problem with the tilted tranny, and tailhousing mount, but in case you've forgotten, here's a new pic of the WC T5 tailend.

I tried to set it up, as straight as possible, so you can see it. Notice how the stud is on an angle. (You can see the torque arm mount issue too, but right now, we're addressing the bottom mount). So I finangled up a piece of 1 1/2 leftover walnut, to fit in the gap on the crossmember.

Unfortunately, I made the wedge about a 1/2" too deep, but it's a start. That photo is of the NWC tranny still in the car. The WC is on the bench, but the tailhousings are identical, (or so I'm told) You may not see it, but the shifter mount top of the tailhousing is touching the floor in the above photo, so I cut a hole, to bring the tranny up about a 1/2" more. Needs a hole anyway, so now's as good a time as any.

I drilled a hole from underneath as a reference point, to cut from above. The hole is about 4"x5". another unfortunate is the console bracketry had to be "altered" a bit, to fit the hole. Guess stick shift consoles are mounted differently. and here's the rough opening from below. The top of the shifter mount, is level with the floor. Would be nice if I could crank it up a 1/2" more, into the console, but not sure where it needs-ta be, right now.
And to keep this post from being overly long, I'll continue on the next post

[tajoe]

Now the problem is that the mount is 1 1/2" tall, and there's not enuff space to put it under the wedge. But the heavens opened up, and I had an epiphany. In the above photos, you can see the wedge. As mentioned, it's about a 1/2" too deep. And from the top of the crossmember, because it has a "C" channel shape to it, it drops down about 5/8ths. If I cut out the middle section where the webbing is, (and the mount hole slot), and weld a section under it, that will give me the depth needed to drop the mount in. In the photo below, I'm holding the mount from below, showing the location above to cut out.


The yellow dots show where it needs-ta be cut out. A minor issue to be resolved, is mounting the wedge, because I'll need 2 sets of holes. One set to mount it to the tranny, and the lower set to bolt the mount to the wedge. The bolts will run into each other, but I think there's a way around it. I'll show more, when I get there.

So I think the wedge idea is better than chopping into the tailhousing. The only casualty will be the crossmember, but they're not too hard to come by. And I know everything is still grungy, but I'm just doing the preliminaries right now. I think tomorrow I'll open up the WC T5, and see what it looks like.

[tajoe]

A tad more progress today.

"Hey!, hows that tranny being suspended, W/O a crossmember?" Aren't the motor mounts ripping outta the frame?
Was curious how to pull out the crossmember for modifications, yet leave the tranny in place, to analyze the hyd. clutch slave cylinder mounting. So I came up with this mickey mouse method, just to get by.


Because the shifter mount casting is right in line with the tunnel hole, I just stuck some bolts and washers under a brace, to hold it in place. It works pretty good.
Now to clean up the crossmember, and figure out the best way to modify it for a lower mount. Got pulled off it tonite, due to anniversary duties.
Tomorrow I'll post pics of the T5 that I opened up.

[tajoe]

Now to see what the insides of this T5 looks like. Of course Borg Warner couldn't make it easy. B4 you can open the top cover, the shifter rail is casted right into it, so 1st you need-ta pull off the tailhousing.

All in all, it didn't "look" too bad in there.

The only discrepancy so far, "visually", (that I can see), is the 1st gear syncro looks worn out. In this lower photo you can see how close it is to the gear dogs. You can also notice how it's a WC tranny, by the lack of brass rings, but the "Kevlar(?)" material.

On the other side, (2nd gear), the gap is a little better.

So for now, at least, (if nothing more) I could throw in a some new bearings, and syncros, don't see a need for gear replacement. Hopefully the shaft will be OK, on the journal  end that the input shaft rollers ride on. Or  I can just wash it out, and see what it sounds like. For now, I got other fish to fry. Get the crossmember welded up, the wedge machined, and the hyd. clutch figured out.

[tajoe]

The more I think about the crossmember alteration, (for a depth cut), I was thinking if there might be a thinner mount that I could use.

If the mount is 1 and a half inches tall, is there a thinner mount available that I could use instead. I wish I knew of a 3rd gen T-5 owner, that could fill me in on the height of the tail off the crossmember, or even the distance the shifter mount is to the top of the tunnel.  I think I'm overthinking this, but I'm wondering how much my wedge will affect the height. Hmmmm

[wheels78ta]

Following this.

Great build and pics. 

[tajoe]

Thanks Kansas. Glad you're peeking in.

Today was a slow day. Bad sprained knee, (from a run the night B4) kept me down most of the day, but I did get out there to cut open the top of the crossmember, trimmed down the oversized walnut template, and got a better  or more accurate measurement for the pocket needed to be fabbed to lower the mount, and take up the excess space from the wedge. I  was hoping to be able to weld a simple flat plate to the bottom of the crossmember, but it looks like it'll need it a bit lower. Approx. 3/4" or more drop.
And took a day off from work tomorrow, so hopefully i'll get some more done. Like maybe start figuring out a bracket for the slave.

[ryeguy2006a]

You've been busy! Since I'm without a project car now, I love checking in to see your progress. Is there possibly a thinner trans mount that you could use? Rather than making the crossmember deeper? I wished that I could find it, but I remember a few years ago reading someone's build thread and they used a T5, built a wedge, and it worked so nicely. If I can find it, I'll pass it along. Don't believe it was in a third gen though.

[tajoe]

Hello RG. I didn't know there was any other tilted tranny applications, 'cept the 3rd gen F-bodys. Don't know if you read post 133 above, but I made a walnut wedge template to fit something in there temporarily. Seems it could work, if I can work out the fastening issue. And I did mention the idea of finding a thinner mount, or manufacturing one, but think it would take less time to just drop the existing crossmember, rather than research a thinner mount. Good thought tho.

As for the hyd. clutch bracket, I think rather than pursue that at this time, I'm gunna take out the 455 block that is in there to locate the eng. mounts, and drop in the 301T motor, with all it's parts, and see what clearance issues need be addressed. It appears the starter body could claim some space where the slave cylinder will mount. On  the chebby application, the starter is on the other side, with the oil filter by the slave. Also the exhausting is a bit different on the Poncho mill, so we'll see how that figures in.
But for now, I'll take the wedge template to the machinist this week, and get his opinion, and get that  made, and installed.
After that, the tranny will be located, and mounted, so I can yank the block outta there, and drop in the 301T. (for fitment only, ...at this time)

[scarebird]

What resources do you have on hand?

ie. plasma, mill, welders?

I think the simplest solution is what you kinda did; cut out a rectangle with the mount slots, make a couple  steel triangles and tack then weld in position. 

Bolts not perpendicular to the holes are not good.

[tajoe]

SB, I have no Bridgeports, or plasma cutters, just your basic home garage tooling. I do have torches, Lincoln arc welder, and a mig welder, but my welds are amatuer at best. I would be confident welding this crossmember tho, but I don't know what area your referring to.
I hear what you're saying about the crooked holes tho. That's my concern too. I was gunna show some possibilities on a drawing, but wasn't sure if anyone understood the issue with fastening. Later I'll draw something up and post it, seeing youve brought it up. Thanks.

[scarebird]

SB, I have no Bridgeports, or plasma cutters, just your basic home garage tooling. I do have torches, Lincoln arc welder, and a mig welder, but my welds are amatuer at best. I would be confident welding this crossmember tho, but I don't know what area your referring to.
I hear what you're saying about the crooked holes tho. That's my concern too. I was gunna show some possibilities on a drawing, but wasn't sure if anyone understood the issue with fastening. Later I'll draw something up and post it, seeing youve brought it up. Thanks.

I have the tools and skill - if you wish to send and return postage the support to me I can cut and weld it up.

[tajoe]

That's a very considerate offer. PM sent. Thanks

[scarebird]

Not a problem - projects like this are the best in this hobby.

[ryeguy2006a]

Not a problem - projects like this are the best in this hobby.

100% agree. I love this build.

[tajoe]

Gunna hook up with the machinist after work tomorrow, and show him the wedge, and see if he can conjure up a better method of securing it, than mine. I have a couple possibilities, but neither are perfect. It would be so nice to find a housing that isn't crooked, but all the ones we hear of, don't have the shifter all the way back like the 3rd gens.

So tonite, I'll be "babying" my injured knee, but will spend some time out in the garage, and look over the 301T, and ready it for lifting into the 84. I can't pull out the 455 block, until I get the wedge in place, to hold the tranny on the crossmember. Once it's fitted, i guess I'll just slide the T5 back, drop in the 301T, and stab it back into the flywheel/pilot brg. While I'm at it, guess I'll need ta put in a clutch and TOB, to help with the slave alignment. I have some serviceable "used" stuff to temporarily put in.

Here's a couple pics of the crossmember that I hacked up. With the wedge in place the mount will need to be dropped, but I'm just not sure "exactly" how much, till I get it finally located. I cut out the center a bit bigger than the widest point of the mount. I don't have a pic of the real one, cause I stuck it back on the tranny under the car, but it's as deep as the round one from the 700 in the back. There is a shot of one mount with the rubber ripped off, and I was contemplating using a thinner piece of rubber on the ripped one in the pic, as an afterthought, or last resort.
If you'll notice the wedge in the foreground, I drew on a possible fastener idea, with some drilled and tapped holes, or on the other side, (not shown), just a couple thru holes. But both methods have their drawbacks. I'll have-ta see what the machinist recommends.

[ryeguy2006a]

https://www.hotrodworks.com/product/ford-t5-to-chevrolet-muncie-bell-housing/

I saw this article and it made me think about your dilemma with the crooked transmission. Would you be able to rotate the transmission on the bellhousing and re-drill some holes to straighten out the mount? probably not the best solution, but depending on how much material is there it could work.

[tajoe]

I've seen those adapters RG, and had contemplated it too. (Post #86) And it was a possibility. I had actually contemplated it to use a Ford T5, because their mounts are straight up. But there are others dilemmas with them, such as in and output shaft differences, along with the shifter in the wrong place. And for some reason, I just don't like adapters, if I can get around it. Something about altering the distances scare me. Driveshaft yoke, pilot bearing depth, ect, ect.
I don't even like the wedge idea, but for now, it seems the simplest and cheapest. Someday, i hope to find a tailhousing from "who knows what?" application, that will become available.

I did bring the template, tailhousing, and mount to the machinist, and he says he'll work it this week. So to hold me over, i'll be working on the 301T, and readying it for installation, (and maybe a bit more).

[tajoe]

Amazing how much crap can be collected in over 30 yrs. Still re-arranging "stuff" in my garage, so I can have better access to the 301T. I mentioned above how I was contemplating mounting the alternator on the passenger side of the eng., and leaving the P/S pump where it is, but the bracketry doesn't work like that, so more alterations will be needed. Glad I found this machinist who maybe able to assist with this, depending what I need. The frt of the 301T has this elaborate mess of tubing and pads that route the AIR smoke thru the heads, that I plan on removing and plugging. I'll post some pics of it later,  when I get going.

[tajoe]

Gentlemen, I've just experienced "another" OMG moment. (In a "great" way)
But 1st, you'll have-ta patiently wait. (LOL)
I finally made some floor space around the 301, so I can begin fitting it. In this photo below, you'll see an entire disaster around the engine, but it's a whole lot better, after a few nights of "re-arranging". Also, I cleaned off a shelf to put some of the 301 stuff on.


In the brown shelf photo  above, see the 4 bbl intake? It totally blows me away how flat it is. Reminds me of olds. I picked it up, (yrs ago) cheap, off-a Ebay. Figured after I rebuild the 301, it'll be easier to get started, (for break in) rather than trying to get running thru the turbo, and intake system. (Still need a couple exhaust manifolds for a "non-turbo" 301, if anyone has any to sell) Also have some .030 over new pistons in the white box next to it, for a non turbo motor. Will bump up the compression, a touch. Found them on Ebay, cheap also.

Once I was able to move the stand around, I rolled out a wooden box that has been stored for years, and was happy to find the accessories for the frt of this 301T motor, along with the eng. harness, the computer box for the dist., and knock sensor. Even have the original P/S pump that I'll need-ta fit, because the chevy bracketry is different.
And I mentioned above, I'ld like to put the alt., on the passenger side? I find that the chevy upper bracket, (with minor mods), might even work on the 301. No pic on that ...yet.
And in order to keep this post from being to lengthy, my next one will be the "OMG" experience.

[tajoe]

So, as I'm rummaging through my "box of goodies", what does my wandering eyes catch a glimpse of?
"I can't believe it?"

Of course, everyone recognizes this, right? Do you guys remember how long I've been looking for one of these? I've forgotten how long. (That's what happens when you get old, you forget alot)
It "is" a 3rd gen., (82- early 83) mechanical Z bar!!!!! With all the linkage and brackets! Man, I can't believe I have this, and haven't a clue when I got it. Maybe 5-10 yrs ago, when I got the pedals? Don't know, but am ecstatic to have it. I posted a pic of a member on the "brand X "site a while ago, (post 99) who had 3 of these, but wouldn't part with one. Now I can go over there, and rub it in his face.
Anyway, I have the hyd. system "partially installed, and was mentioning having to fab a way to mount the slave cylinder. Now, I don't have to.
I hung it off the ball on the 301, just to see it.

So, maybe I should be a little up-set, because I have "2" hyd. systems for this car, (one was free, and isn't complete), and one that "might" work. Won't know till I get it bled. But I would rather have the mech., even if many say it's a "crap" design, and I can definitely see it's weak points. But because I won't be driving the hell out it, and won't have a stiff clutch, I'm hoping it'll be OK. If not, I still have hydraulics to fall back on. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm stickin to it.

[scarebird]

at least you did not buy off epay and then find your old one...

[tajoe]

at least you did not buy off epay and then find your old one...

LOL. that's usually my life, in a nutshell.
(I can't believe this is still "page 4" Talk about long winded)

[Jack]

All caught up Joe (me that is with your build). Great job and I love the offers from other TACres.

[tajoe]

All caught up Joe (me that is with your build). Great job and I love the offers from other TACres.

I agree Jack. That's why I'm still here. Good people on this site. Wondering if you or your sons have installed the carb yet.

[ryeguy2006a]

That's fantastic you found the Z bar! What great luck you have there. I'd go out and buy a lotto ticket haha. 

[tajoe]

Government takes enuff of my money RG. I haven't bought any tickets in yrs, and don't plan on starting again.
But you're right, I'm glad I found it, and it's good I haven't gotten deeper into the planning, or fabbing, but I wish I had remembered sooner. Oh well.

Got my wedge just now, and will be playing with it tonite, so pics to come.