84 301T

[tajoe]

Looking for more advice/opinions.
About the Tremec TKO-500. I hear Tremec took over the T5s, and they seem to be a step up, from the OEM T5s. Much of the info I find, appears they're mostly for the Ford group. Still not sure about the adaptability.
I also see some ads for an aftermarket Co., called "Rockland Standard Gear", altho the magazines are pretty old, and the site seems to be dysfunctional. But their prices were reasonable, and so are most "non" WC T5s, which are suppose-ta be only good for 4 silly-winders or 6s. Not V8s. Even on E-bay, seems like anything stick shift related is gobbled up, gone, or non existent.

[tajoe]

As others have said, I like the idea of putting a turbo 301 in your 1984 TA. This is what Pontiac would have done if GM didn't pull the plug on the 301. This is why early 3rd Gen TA's had the offset hood bulge. Obviously, when Pontiac built the 301 T, they were at a disadvantage not having modern electronic controls for engine timing, fuel flow and knock detection. Since my car came with a NA 301, I tried to join 301 Garage. I always got a message saying "registration is disabled". Regardless, they have a lot of good 301 information. Joe from TTA Performance is the guru on these turbo motors. I think he has a streetcar running 12.80's on ethanol without going into the engine.

Hang in there, I would love to see this project finished!

You brought this up a while back, and I was confused why this would happen. (At the "Garage")
Now, it seems I'm out too, for what-ever reason. When I click on the access page, the screen comes up white, and blank, with a computer gibberish statement, saying I'm not authorized to view this page. There are parts of the site that are still accessible, but not the main forum. Am I banned, (?) been there about 10 yrs), or is the site dying a slow death? Anyone else tried this?

[72projectbird]

As others have said, I like the idea of putting a turbo 301 in your 1984 TA. This is what Pontiac would have done if GM didn't pull the plug on the 301. This is why early 3rd Gen TA's had the offset hood bulge. Obviously, when Pontiac built the 301 T, they were at a disadvantage not having modern electronic controls for engine timing, fuel flow and knock detection. Since my car came with a NA 301, I tried to join 301 Garage. I always got a message saying "registration is disabled". Regardless, they have a lot of good 301 information. Joe from TTA Performance is the guru on these turbo motors. I think he has a streetcar running 12.80's on ethanol without going into the engine.

Hang in there, I would love to see this project finished!

You brought this up a while back, and I was confused why this would happen. (At the "Garage")
Now, it seems I'm out too, for what-ever reason. When I click on the access page, the screen comes up white, and blank, with a computer gibberish statement, saying I'm not authorized to view this page. There are parts of the site that are still accessible, but not the main forum. Am I banned, (?) been there about 10 yrs), or is the site dying a slow death? Anyone else tried this?

It's probably dying a slow death. I remember when I was over there, activity was pretty low.  Only a handful of guys posted regularly.

Sucks as there is a ton of 301 info on that site that isn't found elsewhere.

[tajoe]

The 301 garage (I think) wasn't the 1st 301 site, because in this video below, it mentions "the now defunct" turbo shrine(?) website. And this video was many years ago.
Too bad Joe on the garage site, doesn't sell some transcripts from that site. I would pay to have that info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iovohEChv10

[FormTA]

The 301 is all but gone completely. Most don't even know what that engine was/is. So many were pulled and scrapped. I mean,  I yanked the one out of my TA (I still have it and it's partially rebuilt) and replaced it with an LS. I have 3 301s now, I will get one in a car again soon.

[tajoe]

We all know they're not power houses, but they have their benefits. Fuel mileage "potential", (not as  easy with the turbo from what I understand), smaller, and lighter, and they do run smoother than the older V6s. (Maybe even the newer(?) Problem now-a-days is parts availability. But as of right now, some stuff can still be had. And with the turbo, it definitely puts enuff power where I'll use it.

I compare this engine, to my 6.2(diesel, form the early 80s, to the 90s.). It was all GM had at the time, and it did an OK job, for mileage reasons, their main objective. I can get over 20 MPGs, with my C-30 dually, pulling a loaded double axle trailer. But, (like the 301) they were poo-pooed at the time, and today the Duramax is just a killer motor. (If you like playing with computers, wiring, and a barrage of sensors). I prefer the simplicity of the 83 6.2 in my dually, and work around it's lack of power. Still looking for an Advanced Adapter Split shifter, that I can put behind the SM465 granny low tranny, to give a better gear selection, with the 3 to 4th gear spread, and lack of OD. But I hear they're not in business any more, and am hoping some-one will pick up the rights.

[tajoe]

Here we are, (Labor day) and I'm still researching, and pondering over tranny options. It's almost overwhelming, because of the many differences of throwing an old BOP bellhousing, into the 3rd gen. And with so many T5s that have been produced over the years, through the factories, and aftermarket, just complicates it even more. I'm sure there's a configuration that'll work in my car, I just haven't got there yet.
The T-56 I looked into, and has as many differences as the T5, but surely is a better tranny.
The aftermarket T5s, like the Tremec TKO, and TKX look like better options, but most are designed for fords, and are costly.
I was hoping to be able to adapt GM WC T5 case, with something like a mustang T5 tailhousing, but haven't found out about  the compatibility. Ebay has pages of different T5s available, but none (yet) that I'm confident with. The aftermarket TKX looks pretty good, depending.
As of right now, still been distracted with yard, and garage clean-up chores, (external), but am still taking time for this swap. 
Below is the tranny adapter, to bolt a Ford T5, to a Muncie bell housing. Any thoughts?

[ryeguy2006a]

Tick sells a LS1 style T56 to Muncie adapter plate. You remove the LS bellhousing and bolt on this adapter. Then it will bolt directly to the Muncie bolt pattern bell that you have for BOP. It says that it will only work with the LS style trans without having to replace the input shaft.

https://www.tickperformance.com/t56-mounting-adapter-plate-swap-applications/

There's really only two main T56's that you would be looking at the LT1 style or LS style. LT1 was a trans from 93-97 that uses an external slave cylinder, and the LS is from 98-02 that uses an internal slave cylinder. They came in 4th gen Fbodies. Looks like a Viper would work too, but they are wayy expensive. And I wouldn't even consider the CTS-V, Corvette, 5th Gen Camaro, or others. Hopefully that narrows down your search.

I'm really curious to see how this thread turns out. Honestly makes me want to do the same thing.  It's a really cool project.

[tajoe]

Another great find RG. Something else to throw into the option pile. It's expanding daily.

I've been conversing with the tranny expert Paul Cangialosi, who has a YT channel called "gearbox videos", and has his business now in Fla, and I'm having a brain fart remembering its name. But this is his website, and he's been around for a while, and still active. I'm waiting for another response to an E-mail I sent, and he's already been generous enuff to reply a few times, in the past 24 hrs. I have faith we'll be able to put something together.
 https://www.5speeds.com/

The adapter to bolt the T-56 to the BOP bell is a good start, but other mods still will be required, such as driveshaft yoke and length, lack of speedo connection, probably rear mount, and shifter adjustment, just to name a few. Not to say it's not possible, but I'm being lazy, and looking for more of a bolt-in, if I can achieve it. i think the aftermarket TKO, or TKX is closer, but still waiting for Paul's opinion. Thanks again RG.

[scarebird]

What are the ratios of the T5?

If your 83 was like my 83 Berly the rear is a 2.73 open - it will need to be changed. 

I would rebuild the T5 and run this with 3.42 gears.




https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-730958/make/chevrolet/model/camaro/year/1983

[tajoe]

SB, if you remember, we already discussed the rear gear in reply's #73, and 74. But I like your style. 3, 1/2 rear gears, (3.42s, or 3.55s) have always been behind my Pontiacs. They're a great street/strip gear, or at least they use-ta be, B4 ODs have spoiled us.
I plan on running a 3.73 like mentioned in post #74, because the OD will allow hi-way driving, but the low gear will give a good snap off the line for the little underpowered 301. Once again, I'm not even sure what gear is in there now, but I know it's not lower than 3-1/2, and because it's an open, it'll definitely need a modification, and up-grade. With a 3.73 rear, I'm not too concerned about the 1st gear tranny ratio. What gear are you running in yours?

[scarebird]

Depends; the TA has a TKO600 w/ 2.9ish 1ist and 0.82 OD with 3.08 gears (mistake on the OD).

LeMans has 3.27 1st w/0.72 OD and 2.93's

Now you mention it the LeMans setup would work nice in your 83.

[tajoe]

And just to throw something more "confusing" into the mix, I've just learned about another company up-state NY, called "AutoGear", who potentially has a 5 speed to replace the Muncie 4 spd. They call it an M-33, but I can't find squat about this tranny on-line. It was mentioned very briefly in the back of Paul's manual transmission book. I've also sent them an E-mail, to see if they'll respond. This is Pauls book, that's been around a while.


Also learned Richmond carries a 5 speed, that looks very familiar, like a Tremec TKO, or am I mistaken?

[scarebird]

IIRC the Richmond 5 speed is the old Doug Nash unit - essentially a 5 speed with low gears to use the type of diff gearing you have.

Paul also had (has?) the M22Z, a Rockcrusher with 2.98 1st gear - would easily fit your 3rd gen and has the Rockcrusher whine.  I had one in my 71 - ran well.

[ryeguy2006a]

I think that's the guy who like Scarebird said has the M22Z gearset for 4 speed transmissions. I remember seeing a tent advertising it at Carlisle. I don't remember the first two gears, but 3rd was a 1:1 and 4th was like a .85 OD. I wonder if it was the same guy?

[rkellerjr]

Cars gonna be a great ride when done.

[tajoe]

Cars gonna be a great ride when done.

Thanks Rich. I hope to keep it going, for "everyone's" pleasure.

IIRC the Richmond 5 speed is the old Doug Nash unit - essentially a 5 speed with low gears to use the type of diff gearing you have.

Paul also had (has?) the M22Z, a Rockcrusher with 2.98 1st gear - would easily fit your 3rd gen and has the Rockcrusher whine.  I had one in my 71 - ran well.

"IIRC", LOL, had-ta look that one up in my Funkin Wagnalls, cause I honestly didn't know it.

I think that's the guy who like Scarebird said has the M22Z gearset for 4 speed transmissions. I remember seeing a tent advertising it at Carlisle. I don't remember the first two gears, but 3rd was a 1:1 and 4th was like a .85 OD. I wonder if it was the same guy?

And yet, "another" tranny to look into. You guy's are just a plethora of info. A 3 speed muncie, with an OD? I can't imagine the spread between gears.  As Artie Johnson would say, "very interesting".

[ryeguy2006a]

And yet, "another" tranny to look into. You guy's are just a plethora of info. A 3 speed muncie, with an OD? I can't imagine the spread between gears.  As Artie Johnson would say, "very interesting".

I don't have a project car at the moment, so I don't mind spending other people's money haha. Lots of options out there. I guess the real question would come down to budget. I think if you are looking for the best bang for your buck, it would be either the TKO 500/600 or the new TKX. It would bolt in with your existing bellhousing, has good first gear and OD 5th, mechanical speedo and is roughly the size of the stock trans. I've been down that road and as much as it hurts, sometimes it's just worth spending the money upfront on the right parts to make things down the road be so much easier.

[tajoe]

I hear what you're sayin RG. There will be a point where I might have-ta bite that preverbal bullet, and all these alternate aftermarket trannys have their good and not so good points. And because Paul hasn't responded to my last E-mail, I'm assuming he's not interested in my money anymore.

But he did make a comment, that has gotten me thinkin. The 3rd gen T5s, (as we all know), have the tranny, (tailhousing mounts), tilted 17°, and because my BOP bell is straight, it causes that mount problem. Pauls says there's enuff meat back there to mill it flat, rather than tilted, but in the same breath, he has said what everyone else is saying. "Buy an aftermarket, and be done with it". LOL
And I probably should, but I just can't see me spending 3K on a tranny that's good for 500+ ft/lbs of torque, behind the 301T. Having a hard time justifying it. If my name was "Trump", I might think differently, but because retirement isn't to far off in my future, i will need money to eat, along with banging gears.

So to sum it up, if I can find a WC GM T5, in "any" condition", I won't mind fixing it up. And the side benefit of that, is I can bolt my existing torque arm to it. But none of that has materialized...yet, so we'll see what transpires. 

[tajoe]

So today I get a notification on the other brand X site, and find a member with not 1, but "3" mechanical Zbars, for a 3rd gen. Offers to  take some dimensions for anyone interested, but states, "none are for sale". Ticks me off, cause those Z-bars are out there, but no-one will part with them.

[b_hill_86]

So today I get a notification on the other brand X site, and find a member with not 1, but "3" mechanical Zbars, for a 3rd gen. Offers to  take some dimensions for anyone interested, but states, "none are for sale". Ticks me off, cause those Z-bars are out there, but no-one will part with them.

Sorry, I’ve been following bits and pieces of your build but admittedly haven’t gotten caught up recently. Do you have a zbar you’re planning on modifying for use cause if not im pretty sure I have an extra 2nd gen one you could have if needed.

[tajoe]

Brian, thanks for the offer, and I too have an extra second gen Z-bar, but I really don't wanna butcher it. The 3rd gen bar is pretty complicated, and specific with multiple weird angles on all 3 components of it. If I had one in my hand to copy, I might give it a whirl, but other than that, I guess I'm stuck with the hyd. set-up I purchased "used", and will need-ta continue modifying and repairing to make it work. Still trying to work out the tranny details. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

[tajoe]

This tranny escapade is really starting to accumulate. There has-ta be a bottom here somewhere.

Waiting for a response from a Co. in SC, called "The gear Box," (.org), and they have T-56s, and T5s, and parts. I sent them an Email this week-end, (concerning my application), and was hoping for a response today, but nothing yet.

And I started having another brain fart, and thinking, "I have a Muncie, and an ST-10 on my shelves", and was contemplating sticking one in, just to get up and running. Then I saw that "Gear Vendors" makes an OD to put behind a Muncie, or an ST-10! How cool would that be? Have the stronger tranny, with an OD on the back, and kill 2 stones, with one bird! Then I looked up the price. 3K!!!!  I can buy an entire brand new race tranny for that. How do they justify that price? 

I wasn't having much luck looking for WC T5s on Ebay, or Craigslist, (which everyone is saying is dying), but just got turned on to Face Puke market place. The wife has that on hers, so I guess I'll try digging into that swamp, and see what floats. (Man.....)

[b_hill_86]

Brian, thanks for the offer, and I too have an extra second gen Z-bar, but I really don't wanna butcher it. The 3rd gen bar is pretty complicated, and specific with multiple weird angles on all 3 components of it. If I had one in my hand to copy, I might give it a whirl, but other than that, I guess I'm stuck with the hyd. set-up I purchased "used", and will need-ta continue modifying and repairing to make it work. Still trying to work out the tranny details. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

Alrighty good luck! And I will catch up soon lol

Also, depending on your needs, check out this site/guy and maybe he can help. He has many YouTube videos on various transmissions for various purposes and is very knowledgeable. He (Paul is his name) answered a call from me and was very helpful. He had a few parts I needed for my ST-10 that weren’t listed online. His website isn’t overly user friendly but he also responded to emails from me as well.

https://www.5speeds.com/

[tajoe]

I guess I've been "over-posting" Brian, so I guess you missed it in post #88 above.
That's Ok, I appreciate the input, and you know what they say..."Great minds think alike". LOL

I went into my garage stash, and pulled out the St-10, and Muncie, and altho both will work on the bell-housing, and clutch, both trannys are shorter than the TH700/T5, and would require a longer driveshaft, and crossmember relocate. Not as easy a bolt in that I was hoping for. Still out looking for a GM WC 3rd gen, V8 T5, used maybe.. (Man, there's a lot of demands there). B4 I have-ta go to the aftermarket, for a TKX.

[b_hill_86]

Sorry tajoe, I should’ve perused the thread a bit more before suggesting that. As I said, your build really interests me and I started following along I just haven’t had the chance to catch up recently.

[scarebird]

If you have a ST10 I would run that with 3.23 gearset.  I do not think a 3" stroke motor will have any issues revving.

[ryeguy2006a]

Given your predicament, my suggestion would be to just keep an eye out for a used TKO trans. I think they go for around 1500-2k. Not sure what the cost of the T5 is, but if you consider it would cost half of that, it's not "that" much more to go with a tried and true trans that will be exactly what you want. I'd also bet that you could sell the T10 and Muncie trans and almost fund your TKO. 

[MNBob]

My TKO fit in easily in a 2nd gen.  But a third gen is smaller. 

I googled it and found this article for a Camaro:

https://www.bowlertransmissions.com/3rd-gen-camaro-tko-5-speed-swap/

Of course your engine is a 301.

[tajoe]

Sorry tajoe, I should’ve perused the thread a bit more before suggesting that. As I said, your build really interests me and I started following along I just haven’t had the chance to catch up recently.

No prob. Brian. It's easy to get lost in some of these threads. I do the same thing.

If you have a ST10 I would run that with 3.23 gearset.  I do not think a 3" stroke motor will have any issues revving.

From what I've heard RG, that's the gear already in there. Guess it's std for a TH700, T/A w/AC. (no posi tho...yet)
As for the short stroke comment, I'm sorry to say, the 301 is "definitely" not a revver. One of the worst head port, and intakes ever designed. No bottom end, and no top end. The only saving grace, is the turbo "kinda" helps. (LOL) But once again, I'm not looking for a rocket ship, just something fun to drive around, (F-body, stick-shift, V8, turbo), and something just a little bit different.
And the Muncie, ST-10 idea, I'm dropping. I pulled both of them out yesterday, and they're a couple inches shorter than the T5. Which means crossmember relocate, and custom drive-shaft. Trying to avoid that if possible.
With an 80s F-body T5, I can easily, (cheaply) machine the tail-housing to fit the crossmember, and mount the torque arm.

My TKO fit in easily in a 2nd gen.  But a third gen is smaller. 

I googled it and found this article for a Camaro:

https://www.bowlertransmissions.com/3rd-gen-camaro-tko-5-speed-swap/

Of course your engine is a 301.

Thanks for the article Bob. It arms me with some useful info that I can use. I was looking seriously into one of them, but think if I have-ta go new aftermarket, I would rather the TKX. Seems the sizing is closer, and I don't think I need-ta cut the driveshaft. Maybe with the TKO, it's longer(?).
Still hunting the used car channels for a 88-93 WC V8 T5. reasonably. In pieces I'ld pay under a grand, complete and working maybe $1500...depending. I'll be looking a bit longer, B4 I bite the bullet on a new TKX.

[tajoe]

OMG!!!!! I can't believe it!! I just found a WC, V8, T5, for a 3rd gen F-body, for way under a grand!! and it (supposedly) still works!
I know, it's not in my hand yet, but it seems very plausible by this week-end. Which means, alls I need-ta do, is machine the tail-housing mount straight, and the torque arm mounts are easy, and useable. Normal fine spline clutch disc, and same driveshaft. After that, I can start focussing on the hyd. clutch system. Yes. 

[ryeguy2006a]

Keeping my fingers crossed for you. 

[Jack]

Way under a grand is good news, hopefully you are not traveling 3 states to get it.

[MNBob]

Great find, way cheaper than TKO/TKX!

[tajoe]

It's less than a 3 hr drive, and is in NH, where my daughter lives. So once again, I'll be able to kill 2 stones with 1 bird. Get the tranny, and see my daughter, and hubby. Waiting on confirmation of times, from the seller, for the week-end.

[tajoe]

I "just" read a thread by Tom, (TAT) on the power cruise, and remember him mentioning an aftermarket serpentine belt system, and was wondering if anyone knows if there's one available for the Pontiac, specifically to fit my 301 turbo motor? I wanna dump the AC compressor, and smoke grinder, and mount the alt. over there. That way, it'll be the P/S pump on the drivers side, and the alternator on the  pass. side. The wiring is already there from the 305, but think the set-up would "look" more balanced. If I have that option.

Also, hooked up with the owner/seller of the T5, and we'll be meeting up tomorrow to finalize the transaction. Can't wait to have it in my garage. (Well, maybe in the car too, but one step at a time.) Hope everyone is enjoying their birds, now that the weather is improving. Good time for cruising.

[tajoe]

I'm pissed. POS PB won't up-load my new pics!

I don't know what's going on over there, but this is the only pic it'll take. Don't even know how it got in.
Anyway, got to meet a young guy, and his girlfriend, who were both extra nice. Not only did I get this tranny, but he thru in some extras, that were "fantastic". Such as a bunch of missing hyd. clutch components. When I get to the bottom of this photobucket dilemma, I'll show more.

[tajoe]

It has literally taken me hrs, to figure out Photobucket, and a different layout that they've implemented. It really bites, when in the contact, (help) section, there is no agent to talk to, only troubleshooting tips, that are generic, and not specific to your individual problem.  Unbelievable.
Finally got it done, (with no help from them), and will post them, (right after I have my breakfast.)

[tajoe]

And here we go. 
Found this tranny on the wife's FB market place. Nothing worked out on Ebay, and craigslist, (maybe someone mentioned here) isn't very productive anymore either. I'm told FB market place is currently the "new" favorite, for sales. (How long that'll last, is yet to be seen.)
I saw this tranny listed, with a few corresponding components, and not listed as "World Class". Just as a 91 Camaro T5. It took a bit of coaxing, (thru FB) to determine that it actually "was", a WC tranny, and not from a V6, but a V8. Once I saw the photo of the frt of the case, I wuz sold.

When the wife and I drove to NH for it, we met him and his girlfriend in a parking lot. Both were in their mid 20s, and I was surprised to hear he was interested in these, "old" performance cars. (Good for him). The T-5 and parts were in the bed of his 2004 beat up 4WD Dodge PU, and he also offered me another torque arm, (didn't need, and don't wanna store), and the tilted chevy bellhousing. I could've taken it, and sold it, but he was so generous with the T5, I told him to keep it. And lastly, he pulled out a small box of hardware, and parts, and offered some of them to me. At first glance I told him no, but then I saw the shifter, and amazingly, the entire hyd. clutch system, (that I already purchased off Ebay). Even the pedals were there, which I also have. When I saw the white plastic reservoir wasn't broken, (like the one have now), and also saw some very rare braces for the pedals to the firewall, I couldn't resist, and he gladly handed over the entire box.

He also mentioned, in his car, he had a 3.73 posi, with 4 wheel disc, that he didn't want the 3.73s in there!. I would love to have that entire rear, but don't know if I can work out a deal. We'll see what the future brings.

So here is the contents of the box. Took me a while to figure how how to rotate this picture correctly. It may appear like "junk" to some, but once cleaned up is invaluable...at least to me. If you follow the vertical black hose from the "perfect" plastic reservoir, (which is mounted on the correct bracket)you'll see the M/C mount, and a series of brackets. One is black, and is looped, (looking like a muffler clamp) which I do have, and then 2 rusty looking rod brackets, that I don't have, but was gunna have-ta make. Now I don't. (They support the pedal bracket, to the firewall, and stiffen it all up when the clutch is depressed.)

And this was the money shot, that sold the tranny, proving it's a WC. The countergear plug, with it's distinctive rib, and the beefy fine spline input shaft. (Plus the bellhousing he showed me was a V8 bolt pattern, and not the V6).

And in this lower photo, you can see the F-body tailhousing and mount, that I still need-ta correct. (The offset). I'm looking harder at it, and Paul mentioned enuff meat to mill it straight, but it appears that'll be a tall order. Maybe, maybe not. Will have to dig deeper.


All in all, I'm happy with the purchase,(even if it needs interior work, that I'm told does not) and altho I would rather a TKO, or TKX, I'm happier I saved myself over 2 grand, and have a tranny good enuff for the application, and not an over-kill.
And now, to start figuring out the hyd. clutch, and how to mount the slave.

[scarebird]

I am quite glad this worked out for you.

That said:



"Never leave parts on the table"

You are not being greedy; odds are quite good that stuff will simply be binned once they get home.  For example:  GM made 2 torque arms with different types of corrugation - I found this out when swapping a 85 Tuned Port drivetrain into my 83.  The rubber isolator cannot be flipped around.  Luckily I had a whole donor car and this issue was quickly rectified.

You can always sell or toss the stuff once the task is completed.