Why Do The LS Swap?

[roadking77]

My son gets irritated that I come up with hypotheticals all of the time, but here goes anyway. I went to my second car show for the year this past saturday as well as watched the BJ auction in Palm Beach. I see a lot of restomods at the auction, all going for stupid money, and saw a few EFI converted cars at the shows. I posed a question to myself as to why so many people put a modern drive train in an old car? The logic is so that it can be a reliable daily driver? Same with efi? If all of these converted cars were done so for that reason then why dont I see any of them on the road on a daily basis?
I am all about originality (I like the conversions too, just not for me) and my carbed 400 Pontiac engine gets me along just fine. I have never had any problems and after a quick pump of the pedal will start right up, even after sitting for awhile. Just makes me wonder why go to the expense of a total drive train change to achieve the same results. Same with EFI. I talked with several people that have done so and they all said positive things about it, but the recurring theme was 'it starts right up, even after sitting for awhile'. So what, my car does also and I saved a lot of money! AND none of them I talked to drive their car any more than myself.

[JJ 109]

Because they are simply better in every way not just reliability. You prefer original, which is fine too.

[Casey]

Because instead of having to constantly f*** with a carburetor to get ideal AFR for a very limited rev range a computer calculates and adjusts it constantly so you can get ideal AFR at all times throughout the rev range, not to mention it just always starts perfectly hot or cold.  Then you get into more power throughout the rev range, more efficient, better throttle response, etc...

That said carburetors are fine for keeping originality, those nowhere near OCD as me, and racing.  But yes EFI is overkill for most owners of classic cars, if they're willing to properly maintain and tune a carburetor it'll start up and run just fine.

[FormTA]

Well, here's why I did it. My 301 was gutless so I really needed to upgrade and it needed rebuilt anyway, both of which cost money.  I was never able to tune the carb (or any carb for that matter) so I wanted efi for ease of starting and running. I wanted to be able to just walk out and turn the key and drive. Now, I bought a mint 1998 TA for 5K ( steal from a buddy of mine) I was able to part it out for more than I paid for it and I was able to keep the whole drivetrain and upgrade my car to rear disks too.

So in the end I love my decision as I have way more than 135 HP (or whatever the 301 was) great gas mileage and ease of ownership. I thought i would drive it more but I love it too much and fear damage being done to it (I do drive when it's nice out but I don't like to leave it sit out anywhere like at a restaurant or something,  I just drive it.)

[ryeguy2006a]

What I like about EFI over carbs is that you have way more control over what the motor does as well as what you can get out of it. With a Carb and distributor there will always be inherent compromises such as when timing will hit, optimal AFR, and no built in safeties. You will always be limited on how carbs will deliver fuel based on vacuum limitations, fuel circuit transitions and weather conditions. Even with a timing curve kit on an HEI, you will have to make a compromise with either better drivability or higher performance. With my EFI I can control what AFR or timing I want in any given scenario and on top of that, my computer will account for any variations in weather conditions that I am in. Barometric pressure and temperature plays a decent role in how the car runs and with the various sensors in my computer, I can account for those. I can also set up safeties such as fuel cutoff, low oil pressure cut off, rev limiter and etc. A stock 400 Pontiac will just keep revving to the moon if you let it. Or at least until your motor has a window haha.

Again, all about preferences. I love digging into the computer and tweaking the settings until I'm happy with them. But there is something to be said about a carb motor that has been dialed in. It just work and you don't have to really think about it.

[Casey]

Ah yes, also timing curves over the rev range if we take the systems as a whole into consideration as well like Ryan mentioned.  Something else that's nice about EFI is that you can have multiple tunes for multiple occasions; various fuel grades, efficiency or power focus, daily or race use, etc...  This kinda stuff is really nice when you get into forced induction, having so much detailed control.

[Jack]

It's really 2 questions:
1. why LS
2. carb or fuel injection

[roadking77]

Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking anyone for doing it. I know everyone has their own reasons and I like to hear them. Another thought I had whilst driving down the road today was the ratio of young people to old geezers like me that want it done. I grew up with carb engines and driving these kind of vehicles when new. There is "no way, no how" they compare to driving a modern car (post 1990 or so). I think part of it may be people wanting these old crates to drive and handle like a new toyota. I think part of the fun of having an old car is driving an old car.
I was seriously thinking about going EFI when I had the motor built for my 77. Im glad the builder talked me out of it. Car has been on the road for several years now and other than the crappy stock starter going kaput, I have never had a problem. I suppose I had a good builder as the car seems to run better every time I drive it. I have never had a problem with start up, regardless of how long it sits or what time of year. Always seems to want more when I stomp the gas and generally all around runs great.

[72projectbird]

I have an LS in my 71. I've put around 15k miles on it since I did the swap and I love every second of it.

[b_hill_86]

Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking anyone for doing it. I know everyone has their own reasons and I like to hear them. Another thought I had whilst driving down the road today was the ratio of young people to old geezers like me that want it done. I grew up with carb engines and driving these kind of vehicles when new. There is "no way, no how" they compare to driving a modern car (post 1990 or so). I think part of it may be people wanting these old crates to drive and handle like a new toyota. I think part of the fun of having an old car is driving an old car.
I was seriously thinking about going EFI when I had the motor built for my 77. Im glad the builder talked me out of it. Car has been on the road for several years now and other than the crappy stock starter going kaput, I have never had a problem. I suppose I had a good builder as the car seems to run better every time I drive it. I have never had a problem with start up, regardless of how long it sits or what time of year. Always seems to want more when I stomp the gas and generally all around runs great.

I have to say I agree with you in that some of the appeal to me is the old technology. Part of the same reason I have a turntable and 8 track deck in my basement at my bar (and an 8 track player in my car). That’s part of the experience I enjoy. Same with my car. I guess I’m an exception to some of the rules though at 35 years old and I was 24 when I bought my car. A buddy kept trying to talk me into LS swapping my car and I still feel the same way I did then. If I wanted an LS powered Trans Am, I’d buy a 98-02.

That’s not to say I fault anyone who digs the LS setup in an old school ride. It’s all about personal preference and what you want out of your “experience”. I, personally, prefer my car with a carbureted Pontiac engine. Not to say I don’t appreciate some modern conveniences such as factory radio and 8 track feeding through a Bluetooth amp so I have the “better” of both worlds. (Purposely didn’t say best because it’s not the PERFECT setup but it’s pretty good). I’m also seriously considering adding a Progression Ignition Bluetooth distributor which would be cool and certainly is advanced compared to a spring and weight setup.

I also very briefly considered a wet intake EFI setup but am also glad I didn’t. It forced me to learn more about my quadrajet and the Holley 3310 that was on the car when I bought it. I recently rebuilt the Holley myself (for $36)which had been in a box in my shed for years  and installed that in place of the Qjet while I rebuilt the Qjet and made some adjustments to the idle circuits, installed throttle shaft bushings, new jets, rods and some other parts. Honestly I rebuilt the Holley just as a small challenge and to learn some.

Overall, without having hands on experience with an LS swapped setup, I’d still be hard pressed to say it’s better in every way. It just may be better in every way for SOME PEOPLE depending on what they want. Just my .02. (Also please no LS guys trying to race me. I don’t need the embarrassment  )

[scarebird]

As far as the LS/LT conversions go, there is also the weight issue to add in - shedding 250 pounds off the nose made the TA a much better car to drive.

My 71 Lemans is getting a 2020 L84 crate motor refit - ProFlo4 did not do as much as I had hoped with the 440.

[JJ 109]

It’s much more that just EFI also.

[b_hill_86]

It’s much more that just EFI also.

I think people are aware of that.

[kentucky yeti]

Kerry, you have been warned multiple times by the moderators to NOT start drinking early in the morning and posting!!!

[79merlin]

For me personally it was a combination of factors. It was as much or more about converting from an automatic to a manual transmission, and getting the car to just plain perform better. I completely understand that a well sorted carb can perform flawlessly. Mine was not though, and that skill set is not in my knowledge base. The car already didn't have the original engine when I got it so originality was long gone. It was always a bear to get started. It would bog terribly when doing any sort of spirited driving. While I have not put a ton of miles on it thus far I am planning to do so. Additionally the Air Conditioning never worked very well. I am confident that the Vintage Air system will be a major upgrade in every way.

[Jack]

Kerry, you have been warned multiple times by the moderators to NOT start drinking early in the morning and posting!!!

100% agree

[Wallington]

I already have a newer car with an LS,  I would have no interest in my firebird if it was easy to work on modern, sensible, defeats the purpose, for me. I was also reading constantly that you couldn't get decent power etc from an old anchor, that was enough for me to go and do it, while those who simply gave up without trying probably got someone else to install an LS for them. That's fine. Can't look at every car at a show anyway.

[FormTA]

I call it hot rodding. I also take pride in the fact that I personally built the whole car.

[roadking77]

Kerry, you have been warned multiple times by the moderators to NOT start drinking early in the morning and posting!!!

100% agree

Sorry, That second cup of coffee always gets me revving, LOL

[kentucky yeti]

 

[5th T/A]

I agree that a modern LS engine with EFI is superior in almost every way to an old style 70's era Pontiac V8. I was 19 years old in 1973 when I bought my first TA, so I grew up with these cars and have fond memories of the way they were. So, I have kept mine Pontiac powered. It does have fuel injection; I wouldn't have bothered with it, but my engine came that way from the previous owner. I think of my 1980 TA as a time machine, so I am trying to keep most of it as close to original as possible. I still respect the people who install a modern drive train and suspension, it's just not for me.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

An LS is superior to a Pontiac or Olds motor in pretty much every single metric: lighter, supports more horsepower, better tech (standard roller cam/lifters/rockers), smoother driving characteristics... we all know that. I don't look at LS motors for their EFI advantage, since you can do the same now to a Pontiac or Olds motor.

But it ain't original. LOL

You can get a Pontiac motor to effectively become a modern motor with currently offered EFI solutions (even multiport such as the Edelbrock Pro-Flo) and serpentine belt systems, which is what I plan on doing. I'll throw all the darn modern tech I want on my Poncho motor: aluminum heads, multiport EFI, overdrive Tremec trans, serpentine belt system, electric fans, high ouput alternator... doesn't matter to me, my only requirement is that I see that "PWH" engraved into the corporate blue block.

I'm 34 years old, so I am in the agegroup that supports restomods on old cars. They're really in style right now. To me, these cars just look awesome with a dropped Pro-touring stance and 18" *PERIOD CORRECT* wheels. If you're going that far, may as well modernize it in other ways, too. I got big plans for my '79, but that won't be for quite a few down the road - for now, it's a special enough site on the road as it is in stock form, and I've learned my way around the Quadrajet that crowns its intake. But even then, I'd still rather have quick and easy cold starts, get some power back by using electric fans, smooth and precision calibrated AFR ratios, reduced friction from roller parts (cam/lifters/rockers) internally, and cruise at 70MPH on the interstate under 2K RPM and not having to hear the engine scream at nearly 3K RPM and run hot due to Borg Warner with no overdrive. I'd still never drop an LS into it, though.

[FormTA]

But LS it's way cheaper. My way was almost free and my ls came from a Trans am, soo... technically still all Pontiac. But I didn't care about originality whit my stock 301. All good points though.

[stros]

My Pontiac 400 kicked the bucket.  I needed to pass smog in CA and the e/Rod LS3 was the only way to guarantee I’d pass.  Not a cheap route to go obviously. 

Just a few of the Benefits: lighter weight, 425hp/tq, starts up every time, no leaks, smells better, lots of aftermarket support, consistent performance.  Should last forever with regular maintenance and how many miles I’m averaging.

I initially was going to have someone build me a Pontiac 461 stroker but I don’t regret my purchase whatsoever.  It is great to driver and I can keep up with the majority of the modern cars now.

PS you can always dress up the LS3 to give it a little Pontiac look.

[Wallington]

Once you have improved your Firebird with an LS, you can improve the rest of the car, more doors, extra headroom, modern seats, electric, airbags, that sorta stuff!

[b_hill_86]

My Pontiac 400 kicked the bucket.  I needed to pass smog in CA and the e/Rod LS3 was the only way to guarantee I’d pass.  Not a cheap route to go obviously. 

Now THATS interesting to me. I thought you guys in California had smog restrictions based on the vehicle itself. Like, I wouldn’t have thought a drivetrain swap would be acceptable but I guess it makes sense. Heck, from their point of view, a modern more efficient engine would probably be preferred over 40+ year old technology. Being in your shoes, I’d probably have done the same thing.

[roadking77]

 

Once you have improved your Firebird with an LS, you can improve the rest of the car, more doors, extra headroom, modern seats, electric, airbags, that sorta stuff!

[stros]

My Pontiac 400 kicked the bucket.  I needed to pass smog in CA and the e/Rod LS3 was the only way to guarantee I’d pass.  Not a cheap route to go obviously. 

Now THATS interesting to me. I thought you guys in California had smog restrictions based on the vehicle itself. Like, I wouldn’t have thought a drivetrain swap would be acceptable but I guess it makes sense. Heck, from their point of view, a modern more efficient engine would probably be preferred over 40+ year old technology. Being in your shoes, I’d probably have done the same thing.

The engine replacement rules for an old car are pretty convoluted here.  Basically CA requires the replacement engine to be an exact replacement that also passes smog 100%.  So I was stuck between trying to find a functioning old, totally stock Pontiac 400 or go the E-rod LS3 route. 

[b_hill_86]

My Pontiac 400 kicked the bucket.  I needed to pass smog in CA and the e/Rod LS3 was the only way to guarantee I’d pass.  Not a cheap route to go obviously. 

Now THATS interesting to me. I thought you guys in California had smog restrictions based on the vehicle itself. Like, I wouldn’t have thought a drivetrain swap would be acceptable but I guess it makes sense. Heck, from their point of view, a modern more efficient engine would probably be preferred over 40+ year old technology. Being in your shoes, I’d probably have done the same thing.

The engine replacement rules for an old car are pretty convoluted here.  Basically CA requires the replacement engine to be an exact replacement that also passes smog 100%.  So I was stuck between trying to find a functioning old, totally stock Pontiac 400 or go the E-rod LS3 route.

Yea, pretty confident I’d have gone your route lol. Pre ’75 is smog exempt though right? For now anyway

[gm muscle]

I had my original 400 Poncho rebuilt and stroked back in 2008. My engine builder kept trying to get me to go the LS route, saying that it would be cheaper. I couldn't justify doing that, especially knowing that there was lots of potential in a smogged-out 70's motor. I am quite pleased with the motor in its current set up. I can roast the tires and still get 16 mpg on the highway (TH 400 and 3.23 gears). I have to admit though, I am very interested in going EFI...

I did LS swap my '87 Monte SS. I didn't have any reservations on ditching the 305 "HO" motor. It now has an LS2 out of an '06 GTO...its a blast to drive. Not a cheap swap but worth every cent.

I'm currently planning to LS swap my 1997 K1500 daily driver. Last Thanksgiving I picked up a L92 out of a '07 Escalade.

L92 6.2 by Jose Mireles, on Flickr

[Ed L]

I bought my car as an LS swap.  It was a restored 1978 Trans Am with an LS-1 engine and a new upgraded air conditioning.  What really grabbed me about it is that everything was relatively new so I would not have to worry about an old engine that needed special care and might be running weakly.  It also had a modern A/C which was my other main concern.

[skisix38off]

I use my TA to race most of the time, with the occasional trip to grocery or liquor store and some date nights,  I had a built Pontiac 400 in it for several years, even had Al Performer heads and headers on it.  None of that can touch the power  and packaging that an LS provides.  The LS also provides a lot of reliability in terms of being able to put a lot of miles on it and in terms of revving at 6K time after time.

I just finished the FM3 Roadtrip Cars and Cones and put 1300 miles on the TA in one week, this is a tour that races part of the day and cruises part of the day.  Never did I worry if it would start in the morning or that I would make it to the hotel that night.  As an aside I found out that I get 24mpg cruising at 80mph!!!!

I could drive this car daily but, it's too expensive to do that, It's too risky with all the drivers on the road that believe they don't have to pay attention.  While I have 4pt harness in my car, it still would not protect me like a newly designed car.

[olds403]

This is an interesting conversation…..modern motors offer things that we all take for granted now.  Older motors can do the same just have to work with Butler for Pontiac or New Olds Performance for Olds. 

For those not following Mecum the LS trans am got more$$ than the original.  Both our lastest Olds motors are EFI true multport injection just like LS.  The Olds i did is a close to LS ever done…Why…because… I am die hard Olds and both these motors sitting are our very own. 

The LS Olds as call it was not that much more than a LSX from Tx speed and in fact we are 1/4 mile from each other shops.  If it matters our 40+ Yr Old LS Olds did 515Hp/530 Tq.  What got expensive was the custom billet crank as I wanted the exact same LS Stroke. 

Last Post…..retired.  My email is sigtauswt@yahoo.com (Mike)
Connect on FB - Michael Gabel
Done…….no more motors and no more cars

http://www.transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=84307.0


https://www.texas-speed.com/p-8245-gm-chevrolet-performance-ls376515-376ci-62l-crate-engine.aspx

[kentucky yeti]

Pure Olds power with a little upgrade.  Those are amazing!

[5th T/A]

Olds403, please don’t go.There we’re a lot of latter second generation firebirds built with 403’s. People looking to keep their original engine but up the power a little could surely use your expertise and suggestions. I can understand if you don’t want to build anymore, but I and probably many others enjoy your posts.

[72projectbird]

You know how many times I think of the purists as Im cruising down the highway in my LS swapped T/A?

Zero. Zip. Nada.

[stros]

You know how many times I think of the purists as Im cruising down the highway in my LS swapped T/A?

Zero. Zip. Nada.

+1. I also like catching modern sports cars completely off guard at stoplights .

[Wallington]

Because they don't realise they are racing you, or care.

[stros]

Because they don't realise they are racing you, or care.

I’m not saying I’m racing I’m just referring to how quickly it jumps off the line.  Hope you’re doing ok down there.

[Jack]

Bottom line is unless you have a very rare car, number matching, etc. do whatever makes sense... And LS makes a lot of sense.