Front Sway bar a necessity?

[78TA_In87]

Hi Everyone!  Long time no see!

After almost 2 years of not doing anything with my 78,  I am considering finishing the build by doing what I can by myself and a friend.  Starting with easier stuff and stuff that allows me drive it safely.

So my question for now is, is a front sway bar required in order to do "soccer mom" driving ?  Just regular highway driving and street driving.  So no aggressive driving.

I have PTFBody sway bars front and back, but the installer mounted it so it rubs the (I believe it is called the) idler arm.  I was told that is what causes my loud THunderous CLUNK sound once in a while when I make turns.  I just need to drive it a little here and there to make sure whatever else I am working on is working ok.  I think this also is the reason why the castle nut in the idler fell off just when the AC guy left his garage to drive 60 miles to deliver the car.  Yeah, he sent me a pic of one wheel point one way and the other pointed the other way. 

Next question would be, what would be the best way to remount it?  If I drill new holes I am thinking it would be too close to the old holes and weaken the structure.  I have a few ideas but don't want to mention them and look any dumber     

[JJ 109]

It have a lot of body roll, and be sloppy.

It should not be rubbing. I would reach out to Dave, he designed those and should be able to troubleshoot what the issue is and best way to resolve it.

[Savage Larry]

Front sway bar is a necessity. There is a problem somewhere. Either you have the wrong idler arm or the sway bar is mounted incorrectly. Shouldn’t be costly to fix either way.

[Gene-73]

With a thick front sway bar it will be close to the idler arm but it shouldn't be touching. I think mine is less than 1/8 inch away.

Regarding mounting the bar, I had posted pre-crash about how I mounted mine. I welded some grade 8 bolts to small square plates and dropped them in from inside the frame. This allows you to use nuts from the bottom and the square plates keep the bolts from turning as they fit up against the sub-frame wall. No chance of them pulling out with this method. Three of the four are easy access from the open front of the sub-frame. The only difficult one is the driver side rear but there is access through a small hole in the side of the sub-frame. Have to fish that one in with a wire, while using a safety string in case it gets dropped inside the frame.

[78TA_In87]

It have a lot of body roll, and be sloppy.

It should not be rubbing. I would reach out to Dave, he designed those and should be able to troubleshoot what the issue is and best way to resolve it.

Yes, I just spoke to Dave earlier about some other things before posting this.  Which was also before deciding that I should be able to tackle a lot of issues instead of hiring a mechanic (especially after getting an idea what the estimate would have been for everything).  I'm getting the car back today so I should get a better idea (the photo was from the mechanic who was inspecting the car and provided the estimate).

[78TA_In87]

Front sway bar is a necessity. There is a problem somewhere. Either you have the wrong idler arm or the sway bar is mounted incorrectly. Shouldn’t be costly to fix either way.

Idler arm is stock (as far as I know).  But I found out online and confirmed that Hotchkis does point out in their instruction manual that installing their sway bar might require to purchase an idler due to the issue I am observing:

http://files.hotchkis.net/instructions/2236F.pdf 
"Special Note:
We’ve noticed that our front sway bar only works with certain steering idler arms. The problem is that some aftermarket idler arms have larger body diameters. This causes clearances issues. The original GM idler arm clears just fine. If you need to replace your idler arm make sure the ball joint body diameter is 1.75” and the body height is 1.5”. ......The replacement idler arm can be found from Classic Industries part # 18753"

I agree that it shouldn't cost much to fix.  This is probably the easiest and least costly problem to fix on my vehicle.  The mechanic  estimated roughly around $15K to fix all my issues.  ....I started to write a rant and then I deleted a lot that came after this. I'm very depressed about my car situation...  I feel like I need to get it off my shoulders and maybe post a new thread so if anyone read it...well just want to say thanks.

[78TA_In87]

With a thick front sway bar it will be close to the idler arm but it shouldn't be touching. I think mine is less than 1/8 inch away.

Regarding mounting the bar, I had posted pre-crash about how I mounted mine. I welded some grade 8 bolts to small square plates and dropped them in from inside the frame. This allows you to use nuts from the bottom and the square plates keep the bolts from turning as they fit up against the sub-frame wall. No chance of them pulling out with this method. Three of the four are easy access from the open front of the sub-frame. The only difficult one is the driver side rear but there is access through a small hole in the side of the sub-frame. Have to fish that one in with a wire, while using a safety string in case it gets dropped inside the frame.

That looks like a great idea, Gene!

When you wrote "pre-crash", I first thought you were in a car crash!  Then I remembered that I visited TAC just a couple of days or so after the site went back up , after not being here for over a year.  I only saw a few post up and thought everyone went to FB     Glad you're ok!

[firebirdparts]

It looks like you don't have much "wiggle room" to relocate; the bar isn't wide enough to get out into the wider part of the frame that exists farther forward.  Maybe a little room is all you need.

I would have said that you can certainly drive with the front sway bar unhooked, yes.  You need to be careful.  Driving dynamics at 30 mph are dramatically different from 60 mph and in a residential neighborhood, you can unhook the sway bars and you'd be fine. With the front unhooked the car will oversteer, but over/understeer is only an issue when you're going to fast enough to need the better part of the available adhesion.

[78TA_In87]

It looks like you don't have much "wiggle room" to relocate; the bar isn't wide enough to get out into the wider part of the frame that exists farther forward.  Maybe a little room is all you need.

I would have said that you can certainly drive with the front sway bar unhooked, yes.  You need to be careful.  Driving dynamics at 30 mph are dramatically different from 60 mph and in a residential neighborhood, you can unhook the sway bars and you'd be fine. With the front unhooked the car will oversteer, but over/understeer is only an issue when you're going to fast enough to need the better part of the available adhesion.

Thanks for your reply!   
This is good to know.  Another priority job is to fix the power steering and removing the sway bar will at least allow me to work on that and then let me drive it around the block to see if indeed I will have fixed it or not.

TAC was able to do what the other 3 mechanics failed to figure out - suggest for me to see if a kink in the line between the reservoir and steering pump is what was causing the incredible difficult and extremely loud noise to happen while steering.  The line is not running in a path where it is hidden and impossible to see by anyone standing over the car, yet these mechanics could not find the problem.  And I didn't even give you guys any photos to look at and you were able to find the problem. 

It's just mind boggling that 3 professionals (in a row) were not able to figure this out.  I need to take a chill pill... and forget about them...

...back to the idler/sway bar concern.  I contacted Dave and concluded that the idler doesn't look stock and may be too big.  The Pro-Forged I purchased from him that came with the quick steer kit seems to be smaller so I hope that helps (I haven't measured both of them yet).

[Wallington]

I like how they point to the other components possibly being oversized, which they possibly are, rather than saying ours definitely is but keep an eye out for this also. As long as you can get it sorted.

[78TA_In87]

I like how they point to the other components possibly being oversized, which they possibly are, rather than saying ours definitely is but keep an eye out for this also. As long as you can get it sorted.

I will keep an eye out, thanks!  Once my digital caliber arrives, I'll take measurements and see if the new idler will clear it or if the one from Classics Industries that Hotchkis suggest is smaller (Classics is just a few miles away so I can measure it before buying).   Thanks!

[Wallington]

Forgot to say, if it has been rubbing the idler with any great force then may be good idea to replace anyway, and of course, find the smallest, slimmest one that may even solve the issue.

[78TA_In87]

Forgot to say, if it has been rubbing the idler with any great force then may be good idea to replace anyway, and of course, find the smallest, slimmest one that may even solve the issue.

Thanks.
My new idler came with a complete quick steer linkage system from PTFB so plan is to replace it all in one shot.  Thanks again!

[Wallington]

I'll have to look up that one, sounds interesting.