Author Topic: 77 steering box (Read 2850 times)

b_hill_86 · « **on:** April 30, 2021, 08:57:52 AM »

I posted some of this before the recent crash so sorry if it sounds familiar.

My 77 steering box was leaking from the pitman arm shaft seal. The box probably needs replaced as there is some slop but for now I decided to change the seal for a temporary fix. Did that which worked but unfortunately it appears to be also leaking from the front of the box for some reason which leads me to my questions.

#1 what replacements have you guys used that hasn’t broken the bank? I’ve read the parts store rebuilds are junk so those might be out. Also have seen new replacements at $500-$800 and that’s just not in the cards for me now so I’m hoping for a happy medium. Don’t really want to send mine out but if it’s the best option I will. I see Firebird Central has what they describe as “77-79 standard ratio 3 turn” for $259 and “2 turn” for $349. Both rebuilds with no core charge. Which leads me to my next question....

#2 anyone know how many “turns” would be in a 77? I assume since WS6 didn’t come out till the following year all 77s should be the same. I’ve seen them advertised anywhere from 2 1/2 turns to 4. My car is about 2 1/2. Makes me wonder if the box had been replaced before. Especially since my column is from a 79-81 which, if I remember right, means the rag joint is different? Or something to that effect and it wouldnt fit a 77 input shaft?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

JJ 109 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2021, 06:53:19 PM »

Quick ratio 3rd gen from rock auto ~$100

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2021, 08:04:48 PM »

Quote from: JJ 109 on April 30, 2021, 06:53:19 PM

Quick ratio 3rd gen from rock auto ~$100

Not junk?

JJ 109 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2021, 07:26:44 AM »

No turned out great. Very tight and responsive.

JJ 109 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2021, 07:28:54 AM »

Cardone 276550

« **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2021, 07:28:54 AM »

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 02, 2021, 10:01:27 AM »

Good deal. For $100 or so I might have to check it out.

FormTA · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2021, 10:38:57 AM »

That's what I got too but a little later box with the metric fittings to match the LS steering pump lines.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2021, 10:50:07 AM »

Quote from: FormTA on May 03, 2021, 10:38:57 AM

That's what I got too but a little later box with the metric fittings to match the LS steering pump lines.

That’s right, I do remember you saying that now. I actually ordered one today but just a 77 replacement. It’s allegedly 2 1/2-3 turns so I imagine it will compare with my current box which is 2 1/2 so as long as it does, I’ll be happy with it. I thought about upgrading but I didn’t want to mess with the possibility of different input shaft sizes and the different lines and needing adapters. I figure I’ll try this and if it doesn’t feel right or there’s a problem it’s got a 3 year warranty or I’ll just send my original out to rebuild down the road.

JJ 109 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2021, 11:12:28 AM »

That one has the metric fittings.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2021, 11:21:25 AM »

Quote from: JJ 109 on May 03, 2021, 11:12:28 AM

That one has the metric fittings.

Said it was standard in the listing. 5/8 and 11/16 I think. I guess we’ll see and if it is metric I’ll just figure it out. Not a huge deal I guess.

JJ 109 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2021, 05:34:46 PM »

This is what I see.

Pressure Port Thread Size   M18 x 1.5
Product Condition   Remanufactured
Pump Rotation   Standard
Return Port ID Size   0
Return Port Thread Size   M16 x 1.5

I have one too, used with the lines from my LS.

They make adapters if you need them.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2021, 06:07:51 PM »

Yea, I’m not sure how rock auto works exactly but the one I purchased is no longer listed. Even if I click the link in my co formation email. We shall see but like you said, there are adapters if needed.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2021, 04:20:46 PM »

I got my new steering box in the mail the other day. Haven’t had time to swap them but I sure do hope the rebuild on the inside is better than how the box looks outside. It does have some grease or wax marks in some spots I assume for warranty purposes but aside from that and a QUICK rattle can paint job, this thing looks like it just got yanked out of the junkyard. I’m not impressed and highly tempted to just send it back without trying it.

Wallington · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2021, 07:02:37 PM »

Or someone has said the same but returned the box with their used part inside it after swapping it out.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2021, 08:01:25 PM »

Possible

« **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2021, 08:01:25 PM »

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2021, 05:32:02 PM »

Well, I got the box replaced today. Small pain in the butt but not awful. Preliminary experiences (In the garage) leads me to think either #1 my steering slop and the wheel being off to the right even after an alignment wasn’t a result of a sloppy box or #2 the slop is elsewhere though I’m not sure where. Or the “slop” isn’t actually slop and it’s just normal and the wheel thing is something else.

Second issue is, after bleeding everything the first time the pump was whining like crazy. Went lock to lock with the car off, then with the car on and on the ground. All seemed well except during that time the carb was in the high idle cam. After finally getting it out to take a ride I have no power assist at idle. I spend the first half of my day spreading 6 yards of topsoil in my back yard by hand today so I’m giving up for now but any advice is welcome on the lack of power steering at idle. Maybe (hopefully?) just still air in the system? No noise now by the way though.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2021, 06:20:23 PM »

Got some time tonight to mess with it but didn’t come up with good news. I tried bleeding it further with the engine on and off and still have no assist at idle. I’m starting to think the pump was on its way out and when I started the car for the first time after the steering box install without having done the lock to lock thing with the car off first, the pump made lots of noise like there was no fluid (even though there was). Since then, the pump has been quiet but like I said, no assist at idle. Then today, even revving the engine up wasn’t doing it so I think the pump may be toast. It was starting to leak too so I suppose it needs replaced or rebuilt. I’m just having a hard time finding rebuild parts or a suitable pump that doesn’t break the bank.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 17, 2021, 05:54:40 PM »

Ended up ordering a new pump while reusing my reservoir. The ones I found with a reservoir didn’t look the same and I was afraid to try them. The other option was Firebird central but the cheapest I found there were something like $150 and they were still remanufactured. New pump I got was $50 so we’ll see. I got the old pump off today. Need a pully puller to get it all apart. Pick up the pump tomorrow

Wallington · « **Reply #18 on:** May 17, 2021, 06:03:03 PM »

Are you sure the noise wasn't just air in the lines until the steering pump circulates the fluid through new box? Hopefully, it may have been part of the issue anyway if replacing it.
I picked up a reman unit years ago, seemed to operate perfectly in the few years the car was driven. But the reservoir was all dented, and had blobs of braze on it to seal what must have been pierced holes or similar. And naturally, the black paint over the top had half the fluid under it so simply wiped off. You'd think someone doing a restoration and shipping around the world might have helped them select a good one, nah.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 17, 2021, 08:19:36 PM »

Yea, I do think the initial noise was exactly that. I’m wondering though if the pump may have been on its way out to begin with and running it with an air bubble in it was the nail in the coffin. Not even sure if or how fast air or lack of fluid will cause a pump failure.

To reiterate since I was tired during my initial post and may not have explained wel enough, I bled the system with the engine off (lock to lock probably 30 times) after the noise initially. After that, engine on and no noise. Another 30 or so lock to lock turns. But once on the ground no assist at idle and yesterday I did it again with wheels up, engine off, wheels up engine on and engine on wheels down. Still nothing and by the end of it, even at higher rpms, little to no assist. And still no noise which was puzzling. I would assume a fried pump would be noisy.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2021, 11:24:23 AM »

Ok, stupid question time. Is the return hose just a standard 3/8 rubber hose like any other or should I be looking for a something specific ? That’s what it appears to be. Just clamped on either end.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2021, 11:41:15 AM »

Finished replacing the pump today. Good time to touch up the engine in some spots and repaint the PS reservoir and pully. Parts store was out of stock on the rental pully puller so I picked up a harbor freight special for $12. Worked like a charm.

As for the the old pump, I took it apart and inspected it. Only thing noted was the magnet was really gooped up with metal and crud but nothing else looked bad.

With the new pump installed I carefully filled and bled the system. I ran out of time but preliminary thoughts are I might be in the clear. Wheel felt a little harder as idle than higher rpm but I was able to go for a quick drive. There was also a bit of an erratic feeling hard to describe but I’m hoping it’s just a little air in the system still.

Wallington · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2021, 12:57:04 AM »

Where was the magnet? Haven't noticed one of them, or looked either. I also used a pump filter that inserts inline like an AirCon orifice tube. Had to record exactly where or forever forget.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 20, 2021, 05:48:06 AM »

Stuck on the back side of the casting of the pump. I honestly wondered if it had been added by someone at some point maybe during another pump repair but my new one came with one too so who knows

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2021, 07:03:36 PM »

Thus far my new pump is an improvement over the old but I must still have air trapped somewhere. Assist varies depending on the circumstances but either way it’s not right. I decided to try vacuum bleeding by modifying another steering pump reservoir cap with a barb fitting but no matter what I do I haven’t been able to get the cap to seal against the reservoir opening so I may have to try to figure something else out.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2021, 07:03:36 PM »

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 25, 2021, 10:45:59 AM »

Well I’m at a loss at this point. I managed to get the modified cap to seal and pulled good vacuum. I pulled 18” of vacuum with the engine off and the wheels off the ground and turned the wheel lock to lock for 5 minutes a couple times. When I looked into the reservoir it seemed like I was pulling air out so that seemed good to me. Next, I pulled 18” or so again and started the engine. Turned lock to lock for 4 minutes and shut it off but I left the vacuum hooked up for a few minutes. Wheels down, engine started, initial impressions were good. Ultimately though the asssit just feels weird. Harder to turn left than right, sometimes it’s real stiff. Sometimes it feels better. Nothing feels like the old box/pump. The pump makes no noise at all. At this point I don’t know what else to do other than replace the seal in the front cap of my old steering box and reinstall it to see if it feels any different. Maybe for some reason this new box isn’t right. I’m just not sure yet.

Savage Larry · « **Reply #26 on:** May 25, 2021, 11:13:40 AM »

I would replace the box. I don't know why you are having so many problems. I had my system totally dismantled when I restored my car and all I did was bolt it together, add fluid and everything worked fine. The system should bleed itself almost instantly.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 25, 2021, 02:29:36 PM »

I might. It’s gotta be the new box. I may reinstall my old one so I can compare and be sure the new box is the common denominator. That’s what I get for taking a chance with Rock Auto I guess.

JJ 109 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 25, 2021, 09:19:51 PM »

I’m not completely clear on what the issue is you are having.

This is a 12:1 quick turn box. It will not feel like the original. It will have significantly higher efforts.

Not sure if that is what you are seeing or not.

Also, there is a locking adjustment nut on top you can adjust the gear lash with. You can also try opening it up a little to reduce the efforts.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 25, 2021, 09:46:32 PM »

It’s hard to describe. But I am comparing it to the old box for this reason (maybe I still shouldn’t but who knows). The old box was approx. 2.5 turns lock to lock. Correct me if I’m wrong but that isn’t what would’ve come from the factory in my 77 I don’t think. Maybe someone swapped boxes at some point. I’ve o on owned the car for 10 years.

The additional effort isn’t consistent which is what leads me to believe there is a problem. Left turns are sometimes more difficult than right but not always. And the effort in either direction seems to vary but not consistently either. Sometimes low speed/low rpms feel decent, sometimes it’s excessive. At idle and a standstill, sometimes there is some assist and sometimes it feels like there is little and nearly stalls the car. That’s the best explanation I can give though.

And that adjustment on the top is marked, I assume for warranty purposes, so I don’t want to mess with it.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 27, 2021, 10:54:45 AM »

Reinstalled my old (leaking) box and everything worked fine. So now I have the hassle of trying to return the “new” box on top of the fact that I replaced my pump and probably didn’t need to. I guess at least it was an excuse to clean up and paint the engine in that area and clean/repaint my power steering reservoir. I’m highly disappointed though in rock auto and need to figure out where I’m going to get another box.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #31 on:** June 01, 2021, 11:32:33 AM »

I guess for anyone preparing to replace their leaky box here is what I’ve found. The cheaper remanufactured items are difficult to find (at least near me) as no local parts stores offer them even though they say they do. The next option was order from jegs, summit or Firebird Central with those running around $350 for rebuilt units. Rock auto offered a new one for just over $400 with shipping and tax but I didn’t really want to sink that much money into one right now. Plus I’m still waiting to see how my return/refund of the reman box goes and I really didn’t want to purchase another from rock auto.

Also, given that the reman box from rock auto really didn’t feel much, if at all, tighter than my box I opted for a $30 kit to replace all of the seals in mine. For now, that only includes the end cap seal and a large o-ring just inside of the input shaft area. I already replaced the pitman arm shaft (sector shaft) seal in an attempt to stop the leaking previously.

Down the road I may decide to completely disassemble the box and replace every seal but for now I don’t feel the need.

This is a video I referenced to gauge whether or not I wanted to mess with anything. It didn’t look all that hard so I gave it a shot. Hoping after work tonight to get the box back in and test it out tomorrow.

https://youtu.be/661ov4GIXAA

If the need arises to replace further seals I may document the process to post but honestly the video does a really good job already so that’s why I didn’t at this point.

scarebird · « **Reply #32 on:** June 01, 2021, 02:02:21 PM »

I would not screw around with rebuilt 800 series boxes - the 600 Series box I got from Turn One made a hell of a difference vs even the WS6 or IROC boxes.

One of our sponsors here sells them too.

JJ 109 · « **Reply #33 on:** June 01, 2021, 06:13:19 PM »

Can’t believe all the trouble you are having. Sorry to hear.

These are very popular and used trouble free by many.

They are made by Cardone, a large reputable aftermarket supplier, not rockauto.

They are available by many sources.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 01, 2021, 10:33:51 PM »

Mine may have been a fluke but it boils down to enough of a pain without enough improvement that I don’t want to chance another one for the time being. Assuming I got my old box all sealed up and leak free I think it may serve it’s purpose long enough to hold me over until I decide what the next step is.

We shall see tomorrow, weather permitting.

b_hill_86 · « **Reply #35 on:** June 03, 2021, 01:53:30 PM »

Weather sucked yesterday but today I test drove the car and no leaks plus steering feels the way it should. Nothing like what I experienced with the remanufactured box from rock auto. Ideal? Maybe not but I’m satisfied. And for $30 to cover the cost of the seal kit so it saved me over $100. If you don’t include the PS pump replacement that probably wasn’t necessary.

Part of changing one of the seals required a spanner wrench which I didn’t have. Harbor Freight did though so I picked one up for $5. Unfortunately it was too small to work. Instead of returning it or keeping it then needing to buy a larger wrench, which didn’t seem to be overly expensive but I probably would’ve had to order, I cut the tip off of the HF wrench and welded an extension in. I know, to most of you guys that probably seems pretty simple, and it was, but I’ve been trying to teach myself to weld recently so it was a fun little test to see if I could do it and it met my needs for only $5 and some time!

Welding used to be one of those things I saw as beyond my capabilities. I’m definitely not good at it but good enough for what I’ve needed. So far I’ve made myself a paper towel rack for the garage and a holder for my welding gun for the side of the cart I use.

Pictures below of the wrench before (from the box) and after, ground flat-ish and a quick coat of paint.

« **Reply #35 on:** June 03, 2021, 01:53:30 PM »

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Author Topic: 77 steering box (Read 2850 times)