Author Topic: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?  (Read 354 times)

78TA_In87

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WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« on: August 12, 2019, 12:28:34 AM »
I have 285 17" 40 (or 45?) on my front wheels.  My mechanic is saying they could be causing my steering pumpS to be going bad, almost immediately, saying they're so wide that they have a lot more grip than then the (narrower) tires that should be on the car.

When I got the 1978 5 years ago, the pump had a slow leak.  Topped off, it worked fine for about 75 miles.  Then 2 years ago I got it replaced during my LS3 swap.  3 new pumps all had issues, within 15 miles of use each (3 different shops).  With the last steering pump replacement, I even replaced the steering box.  Now I plan to replace the front end with Dave's (PTFB) steering kit, bump steer  correction kit and quick steer pitman arm.

The 1st 2 pumps where by Tuft Stuff that BRP Hotrod sells as a kit for 2nd Gen LS3 conversion. The 3rd shop decided to get one designed for truck with LS3, thinking it would be stronger since truck weigh more and have larger wheels.  But that's not working out either.

Are 285s too big???  I know a lot of you guys use 275s in the front when going with the 17" snowflakes.

What could be causing these pumps to go bad?  Even when topped of with fluid, the car still make the sound of a pump when almost empty on fluid.
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firebirdparts

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 02:33:28 AM »
When you're not steering, the pump should not be under any load.  Driving straight, it does nothing.  If it's under load when you're not steering, the steering box would have to be messed up, but I've never seen that.

When you steer, the box starts to clamp down on the fluid coming from the pump and that creates pressure to steer with.  It's designed not to rob power unless it really needs to.

Can't say I've ever heard of anybody hurting the pump by working it hard. 

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Casey

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 03:00:30 AM »
A wider and stickier contact patch does put up more resistance than a narrower and harder contact patch, but I've never seen an instance where that alone caused P/S problems.  Really at most it makes the steering heavier, which is a good thing in most instances.  Now what can and does cause issues is turning the steering full lock and leaving it there for more than a couple seconds, that's a great way to send pressures soaring in the system and burn out a pump and/or blow seals.  Besides being 5th and 6th gen Camaros are just as heavy with just as much, if not more, wheel and tire it shouldn't be the pump.  Only thing else off the top of my head would be to check lines for collapsing/kinks, or perhaps obstructions in the lines.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:06:15 AM by Casey »

jonathonar89

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 04:14:20 AM »
My question would be if the pressure/return is plumbed correct.  I recall you had a lot of work done when that swap started.

79T/Aman

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 07:14:00 PM »
first thing that came to mind was plumbed back wards but you are driving now right?
Could it have been plumbed back wards at firs then fixed? if so it can damage the seals in the box, modern 670 boxes do not like being plumbed backwards, and most times they will even blow seals so they will leak but not always.
What steering box do you have?
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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 07:14:00 PM »

78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 08:59:12 PM »
first thing that came to mind was plumbed back wards but you are driving now right?
Could it have been plumbed back wards at firs then fixed? if so it can damage the seals in the box, modern 670 boxes do not like being plumbed backwards, and most times they will even blow seals so they will leak but not always.
What steering box do you have?

Hi Dave.  I have your 670 box. 

Ever since the LS3 swap, I've never once felt the steering to be correct (I only drove it less than 5X).  It's always had the same symptoms with all 3 steering pumps. Only with the 3rd pump install did they install it with the 670 box. Current mechanic said when he left the shop on the way to deliver the car to my house (about 55 miles away) then it started acting up.  This was this past weekend, so the car is finally home (after 27 months at 3 shops).

He wants me to keep driving it so the computer does its calibrations so then I can smog it where it'll be street legal. And then he'll be able drive it and try to fix it again.  But I don't feel safe driving it. I'm also afraid it could cause damage to the box or something else too.

When driving slow, such as trying to turn in reverse into a tight garage opening, or slowly turn out of the driveway, it feels a little hard to turn and makes the typical sound of when the pump is low on fluids.  I never took it down the road with this 3rd pump.  With the previous pumps it felt the same as this 3rd one, and with the previous pump I did try to drive around the neighborhood and freeway and then it felt pretty normal.  Just at slow speeds (around 5 mph) it's tight and noisy.

Should I try to drive it around the neighborhood so I can give you an better analysis report? Just afraid of damaging something.  Would taking pics of the pluming help? 

Dave, I called last Friday and got a hold of you on the road.  As a reminder, I would like to purchase your steering kit, bump steer  correction kit and quick steer pitman arm.  I'll call again this Friday if good for you.  I read in a recent thread you modified Corbeau seat rails that were 1.5" off.  I may want to purchase them. 
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78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 03:30:25 AM »
Thanks everyone.

It's late and I cant sleep because this steering issue is on my mind.  So I started looking around the pump to see what you guys mean about the plumbing.  So what I found is one of the 2 hoses is flattened around a bend, which is about the middle of the hose length. I would estimate it to be a 45 degree bend. And its really oily, the entire length from the pump to the bend (maybe the entire hose - i could reach it all). I can easily squeeze the hose where it's flattened so that it becomes more circular. If I can do that then should it be no problem for the fluid to pass through as expected?  But I'm thinking this is definitely at least 1 thing that needs to be addressed.
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Aus78Formula

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 03:41:41 AM »
I was just curious who the "lot of guys that use 275 on front with R17" are?! Or better still, how do you fit a 285 on the front?! And what's on the back?!

My stock spring setup rubbed the sway bar with R15/245 and for R17/255 I had to space the steering bump stops. I have custom steering but not that custom.

Casey

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 11:49:08 AM »
And its really oily, the entire length from the pump to the bend (maybe the entire hose - i could reach it all). I can easily squeeze the hose where it's flattened so that it becomes more circular. If I can do that then should it be no problem for the fluid to pass through as expected?  But I'm thinking this is definitely at least 1 thing that needs to be addressed.
.......So what you're saying is, they couldn't even be bothered with using power steering lines?  Well there's your problem...

78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2019, 09:24:54 PM »
Here is a video I made showing the bend in the hose.  unfortunately it was at the end of the day so it was dark and I wasn't able to place my flashlight in a good location unless in my hand, and then it was hard to focus and hold the camera with one hand.  I will shoot it again in daylight this Saturday.

The last 4 seconds I get it both in focus and a decent zoom in.  Plus you cans see that it looks like below the bend it's not as greasy, making me think the bend is cutting the fluids from getting to the pump below from the reservoir above.  Do you think the fluid is being squeezed out from the end of the hose of house or through the tube wall itself?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixsuQxoiF_k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixsuQxoiF_k</a>

And to make up for the poor video, here is one with a Motorcycle and ROCK and ROLL all in 1 video!  This was a from a show I went to last year.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXH_GDP8lOY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXH_GDP8lOY</a>

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78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 07:57:59 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb here, If the hose I saw in your Video, is the one you are trying to point out, It looks like "Fuel Line Hose". Its probably the return(Low Pressure", which fuel line hose is not an acceptable substitute. I posted a google link in my previous post. Since I'm not there, I don't know what will work with your current setup, so I would call whoever Supplied/Manufactured the current parts your using, and find out what they recommend. I would change both hoses, since you already know you have some "Questionable" parts/workmanship. Keep at it you will get it properly put together.

I'll call the manufacturer once I find out which pump the mechanic purchased.  And I'll upload better photos and/or video tomorrow when there's more daylight.  Whatever hose I need, I hope they make it with a pre-made bend.  Otherwise any straight hose put there is going to bend.  Do they make hoses like that?  What's the difference in material used in a fuel line vs a power steering hose? 
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78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 11:41:01 PM »
I don't mind helping you, but I have referenced a previous post I made with a link to Power Steering Hose, and yet you ignore. The difference between Fuel Hose and Power Steering Hose, is Fuel Hose is Low Temp, Low Pressure..... Fuel Injection Hose is High Pressure, but again Low Temp. Power Steering Hose is Higher Temp, Higher Pressure. It could also be used for Automatic Transmission Cooler Lines. Power Steering return temp can be very high....and if you were stuck out in the middle of nowhere...fuel line would work, but its not ever going to be good for long term. And again, whom ever is working on your car, if they did indeed use Fuel Line Hose for your "Return", you have a good example of what you have been throwing your money away on. The actual difference in price between the two types of hoses is "Penny's". But using just whatever "Crap" is laying around, takes those penny's out of your pocket and puts them in his. I would never trust any of the so called people you have had working on your car....   

I appreciate your help.  I'm not ignoring it.  I looked at it.  But that belongs to a stock 78, right? 
Mine car is nothing at all like stock.

Everything under the hood has been replaced during the LS3 swap and the replaced parts are not in the exact locations anymore. I've already tried to help out the previous mechanics by purchasing replacement pumps, even after calling BRP HOTRODS, who sold me the 1st one, but he must have given me the wrong part number because the shaft diameter didn't match up. The mechanic installs it before placing the pulley bak on. Then I end up with taking a hit with the cost because I got the wrong one (which I accept). So I try to get the right pulley and that doesn't quite work out. There's a number of factors involved in getting the right parts to match up (pulley diameter, width, shaft hole) So from now on, I'm not ordering any parts.    I've spent way too much time researching the right part.  I'm not a mechanic.  They're the experts, not me.  I'm paying them to do a job. I should be treated like a little 99 year old lady where they shouldn't be expecting me to be helping them out.  I don't expect people to help me out when they pay me to do it.  But I'll try my best to research and help them out.  But I'm not buying any more parts where they install it, or throw out the boxes they came in (after I tell them not to) and then get stuck with hundreds of dollars in parts plus more in labor because I gave them the wrong parts. 
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Aus78Formula

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2019, 12:16:14 AM »
The issue, of many perhaps, is that the low pressure return line is kinked or at least very limited in its flow. At least that's easy to test with a new hose cut to length so that it doesn't have one sharp bend flattening it, easy to rule out.

firebirdparts

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2019, 11:10:35 AM »
From what I have seen, these cars never had preformed hoses in that service.  they're straight.  Naturally you don't want a kink.
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1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2019, 03:04:18 PM »
The issue, of many perhaps, is that the low pressure return line is kinked or at least very limited in its flow. At least that's easy to test with a new hose cut to length so that it doesn't have one sharp bend flattening it, easy to rule out.

That's what I am thinking and hoping. Just hope that is the only issue.  When my gf returns, I'll ask her to turn the steering wheel while I adjust the hose by hand to remove the kink.  I hope the pump didn't already burn out and get damaged.  Thanks!
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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2019, 03:04:18 PM »



78TA_In87

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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2019, 03:08:34 PM »
From what I have seen, these cars never had preformed hoses in that service.  they're straight.  Naturally you don't want a kink.

Hmmm.  There's not much space where it need to curve...unless I route it a longer route, taking a less sharp bend?   Or replace with a pump where the inlet and outlets are in a more desirable angle/direction.  I'll take a look at it again once my gf returns so we can try out what I wrote in the last reply. Thank you!
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Re: WIDE Tires not good for Steering Pump?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2019, 03:08:34 PM »
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