Author Topic: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem  (Read 699 times)

Grand73Am

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Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« on: April 15, 2019, 06:56:46 PM »
Anybody bought the reproduction Year One 15x8 Snowflakes? I bought a set recently and had some new BFG Radial TA's installed. They shake at 60 mph and up. I had the tire store re-check the balance, but they still do it.

I know it's not the car because I put a known good set of the wheels/tires on the car and it doesn't shake with the good ones on it.

Right now, I don't know if it's the wheels or tires causing it. So, just checking to see if anybody has the same problem using the YO 15" wheels.

Any suggestions on how to check them? I expect to have to dismount them to find out where the problem is.
Steve F.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2019, 07:25:17 PM »
Would the centre mounting bore be the same issue as the 18" snowflakes which were tapered too much to mount on a stock hub? How recent are they, could you use the original snowflake lugnuts or had to use tapered acorn style?

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 07:48:36 PM »
These are very faithful to the original 15x8's, and use original factory style shank lug nuts with the flat seat. They didn't go through the changes that the 17's did. 

The hub bore is actually a good fit over the hubs. But, you have made me think that I should check the diameter of the bore versus an original and see if they're exact. They seem to fit fine, but a couple thousandths looseness might make a difference.
Steve F.

DeVilliers

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 01:06:31 AM »
Many years ago, I had a similar issue with my Nissan.
At first is was thought the wheels were off centre, so every thing was measured and slightly machined. The inside on the wheel was skimmed to be 100% flat against the hub.
This was with tapered wheel nuts.
The problem persisted.

Then I took the tires of and took only the wheel and have it balanced without the tire. At first we didn't notice anything, but then if you put a dial gauge on it then you see the wheel is wonky.
I had the wheel straightened and outside edge and inside edge of the wheel skimmed at a mag repair shop.
Problem solved.

Perhaps dismount then as you suggest and see what happens
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Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 08:21:14 AM »
Many years ago, I had a similar issue with my Nissan.
At first is was thought the wheels were off centre, so every thing was measured and slightly machined. The inside on the wheel was skimmed to be 100% flat against the hub.
This was with tapered wheel nuts.
The problem persisted.

Then I took the tires of and took only the wheel and have it balanced without the tire. At first we didn't notice anything, but then if you put a dial gauge on it then you see the wheel is wonky.
I had the wheel straightened and outside edge and inside edge of the wheel skimmed at a mag repair shop.
Problem solved.

Perhaps dismount then as you suggest and see what happens

Interesting to hear what you had to do. I might have to dismount to find the problem. In the meantime though, a couple people suggested I find a shop with a Hunter Road Force diagnostic balancer. I looked at it on youtube and it's very impressive and is able to find any problems with tires or rims. So, I might do that.

But first I'm going to measure the center bores to be sure that they are the same as originals, since these wheels are hub-centric and depend on a good fit to the hubs. If the holes are ever so slightly too large, then they could be off-center on the car. So, if the centers aren't right, seems to me there's no point in putting them on a machine again, since they still won't be right on the car.

Thanks for your response.
Steve F.

Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 08:21:14 AM »

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2019, 12:42:35 PM »
It looks like it's the wheels after all. Here are the measurements, and they appear to be the problem. An original wheel center hole is 2.787" diameter. The new wheel is 2.801". So, the new wheel has a .014" bigger center hole than original. It doesn't sound like much, but when I hang it back on an axle, there is noticeable up and down movement on the hub. So, I can see now that when installing the new wheel on the car, with the wheel hanging on the axle hub, it is already off-center by that much. The shank style lug nuts don't pull it back up, since they have play in their holes too, and aren't intended to center the wheel. So when tightened, the wheel stays off-center. Hopefully, there are hub-centering rings available that will fit and take up that little bit of slack, if I decide to keep the wheels. This is a defect in the wheel in my opinion. It's supposed to be made to fit a 2nd gen TA without having to do this. Very disappointing, but glad to finally know what the problem is.
Steve F.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2019, 07:03:09 PM »
That's disappointing and makes for a terrible reproduction part that can't be used as a replacement on stock vehicle. Were your lugnuts genuine or repro, guess it doesn't matter. Mine aren't genuine, but they aren't the cheap and nasty ones with thread size stamped either, just the only guy who who ship them at the time. I'm not sure if the chrome is an extra lick thicker than usual.

I picked up my R17 Snowflakes almost as soon as they came out, and before all the dramas were announced. I have never driven my car with them, yes that was 10 years ago, but when checked and rechecked, they were firm, each lugnut needed a touch of oil to help guide it as they were almost perfectly matched to the bore even though it wasn't their job to be. It might be different at speed, but I couldn't get the rims to budge at all even with just one or two lugnuts on them loosely. I can't recall any movement with the lugnuts removed either, since that was the main focus of the forum posts at the time, if the problem exists on mine, then it doesn't seem to be as obvious or bad as others. That was my luck for the year.

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 08:42:58 PM »
As for the lug nuts, I've used both originals and repros on them during my swapping them back and forth trying to figure out the problem. Both worked equally well for securing the wheels.

I never noticed before taking the measurements, but the back side of the center hole is beveled around the edge on both the factory wheels and the YO wheels. I remember seeing that same type of conical bevel on some YO 17" Snowflakes I had for a while. This leaves a beveled gap around the hole between the wheel and hub. So they should accept hub-centric centering rings, which would cure the problem pretty easily and cheaply. All they have to do is hold the wheel centered while it's being tightened, and not prevent full seating of the wheel. 
Steve F.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 10:54:29 PM »
That's correct, the massive bevel is half the issue. Search for the rings and parts numbers come up that work. But shouldn't have to. All these years and no one has mentioned it to Year One...I mean, they'd surely mention the wheels don't fit.... pfft.

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2019, 07:41:23 AM »
To continue the saga...after doing research last night on the hub-centric rings, I find that they are not made as I had imagined. They're really just a flat sided ring with a flange on the bottom. The inner ring diameter is the hub diameter, so it slips over the hub, and the outer diameter is the wheel bore diameter, so it fits inside the wheel bore. And at the base of the ring is a flange that will sit next to the hub. So the ring is supposed to fill in the space in between the larger wheel bore and the smaller hub. In my case, the problem is that the space is so small that they don't make rings that thin. I found one ring that is almost the right size. The inside diameter is right, but it's 1 mm too thick to the outside. I'm thinking of buying a set, placing one over the axle hub, and with the rear end supported, run the axle in drive while holding a piece of sandpaper to the ring to cut it down 1 mm. Might work.  Maybe just wrapping the hub with some masking tape would work, and certainly be much easier.
I did some more measuring, and it looks like I have between .020" and .025" play between the wheel bore and hub, a little more than previously thought. So it looks like I'd need something that's around .010" and .0125" thick to center it.
I'm thinking all it needs it something to hold the wheel centered while I tighten it, and not for continuous support. These wheels get tightened to 90 lb/ft, so I don't think they'll move once tightened.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 07:30:46 PM by Grand73Am »
Steve F.

nas t eh

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2019, 05:04:22 PM »
I had to use rings on our BMW when I picked up set of aftermarket wheels for snow tires. They were very thin plastic sleeves. Without the rings the vibration was very noticeable, the centring rings helped a lot but did not totally resolve it. Nothing I tried ever did solve the problem fully with those wheels. All the stock wheels for BMW fit so tight on the hub that after they have been on the car a few months, you need a few swings with big Hammer to the sidewall of the tire to jar them free once the lug nuts are removed. This and the dealer greases the hubs prior to installing the wheel to help.

You said you found rings that are 1mm too large outside diameter, I’d buy 8 of them if I was you and try on a set unmodified first to see if they will work, I’d use a light coat of grease on the hubs and wheels as well.

Too tight might be just right, if the rings got stuck inside the Y O wheels forever but still came off the hubs when you need them to, I think that would be OK.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 05:09:53 PM by nas t eh »
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Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2019, 07:31:16 PM »
Thanks for sharing your experience and for the advice.
Steve F.

firebirdparts

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2019, 10:29:53 PM »
  I take it they’re all that way?  I think we had this same thread years ago.

You could run shim material in there but you shouldn’t have to.  They should have made them to fit.
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Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 10:02:49 AM »
The older thread that I remember was about the 17" Snowflakes, not the 15's. With the 17's, they made the first ones to be hub-centric like originals for using original lug nuts, and then later they changed them to lug-centric to use tapered type nuts, and not having to depend on the center bore for centering. So, there was a fairly long discussion about them, and about the best lug nuts to use.

I've received a lot of good ideas for a "bandaid" fix to make them work. But as you said, I shouldn't have to, and they would never be "right". I bought these, instead of buying and restoring some used originals, because I thought they'd be ready to go, which was more convenient. Unfortunately they aren't and have caused me much inconvenience, and some extra expense. I'm going to see if I can return them.
Steve F.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 07:26:50 PM »
Let us know how you go, most won't accept returns once tyres mounted. Which of course, is the only way to realise issues. I'm not sure that the early 17" snowflakes didn't also have this problem.  The second batch changing the offset and lugnut style, which may have helped them centre.

Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 07:26:50 PM »



nas t eh

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 11:45:16 PM »
Now that it’s been brought up, as I think about it, what you likely need is the same “Extended thread” acorn lugnuts all us YO 17” honeycomb or 17” snowflake wheel owners have had to buy. One of the other threads had the link to the eBay posting.
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Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2019, 11:50:46 PM »
His rims don't have that style lugnut seat.

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2019, 07:15:19 AM »
Yes, I actually bought some of those extended tapered nuts when I had some 2nd edition 17's that have lug-centric tapered lug holes, and they worked good for them.

But these wheels have flat seats like original wheels, so they use factory type lug nuts with the flat washer head and short shank. There was an idea to find some similar nuts with a larger diameter shank that would fit tighter in the holes to help center it, but I didn't find any with a larger shank that would fit on the original 7/16" lug studs. 
Steve F.

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2019, 03:40:24 PM »
To wrap this up, I returned the wheels to Year One today. I took an axle with me so I was able show the excessive play between the axle hub and the wheel bore. They gave me a refund and the customer service was good. So, I'm satisfied with the result. Thanks for everyone's ideas.
Steve F.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2019, 06:56:46 PM »
Let me guess, you were the first to bring up this issue, must have been a bad batch!

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2019, 07:01:32 PM »
Let me guess, you were the first to bring up this issue, must have been a bad batch!

Good guess ;) .
Steve F.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2019, 07:05:44 PM »
It also helped that you were wielding the spare axle around and dribbling.
Did they have any particular suggestion on why they were made that way or what nearly every other owner should do?

Grand73Am

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Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2019, 07:33:24 PM »
Haha. Maybe I was the first to recognize and figure out the problem. They did seem to be genuinely surprised to see it. Somebody's got to be the first, might as well be me  :-) .

Fortunately, they had an original wheel there to compare the fit with, and the axle fit tighter in the original wheel which helped prove my case. I had also brought an original wheel with me, in case I needed it to show the difference in fit. But I didn't have to take it out of my pickup, since they already had the one inside the store.

Since they didn't seem to be aware of the problem, they didn't have a suggestion ready. I have tried to think of a work-around and asked for and received many other ideas to make them usable, but all were "band-aid" solutions. I would have liked to keep them, but lacking a proper solution, the only choice was to return them.

The odd thing is that I put this question out in 4 forums and facebook groups, where I thought many 2nd gen TA owners would visit, and only had one other person say they bought these wheels, on a facebook page. I know that's just anecdotal evidence, but it just seems like they haven't sold very many of these WS6 15x8 wheels, from the lack of response from buyers.
Steve F.

Re: Year One 15" Snowflakes possible problem
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2019, 07:33:24 PM »
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