Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?

[yellow1098]

Ok I just started the process of building my stroker with a goal of 500hp. I just dropped off my 70 4bolt main block at the machine shop. Now I'm look at which stroker kit to buy...the first call I made was to Butler and they suggested the 461 all forged and pre balanced with Ross flat top pistons and
H-beam 4340 rods. I am first wondering why the 461 and not the other slightly larger strokes like the 468 or 472? The kit they suggested is $2,200

I also have a question about which cam to go with??...they suggested a custom grind hydraulic roller cam 282/288, 230/236, .510/.521, 112LS....I am wonder if there are benefits and differences to going with a solid roller cam instead? If I have that right....the heads I will be using are edlebrock aluminum 87cc.

One of the problems I have been told to reach my hp goals will be the intake I have...which is an edlebrock stock replacement...if I ran the edlebrock RPM or better will I have problems with my shaker? I believe PTFB sells a shaker base that makes this situation better to run the other intakes so I am looking for some feedback on that as well. I was also planning to run a small shot of nitrous once everything is all said and done. So any feedback on this intake situation would be wonderful!

My main reason for writing this post was to get feedback on my combo and how I could best get to my hp goal with the right stroker combo and cam... as well as how I run the correct intake while keeping my shaker... I also know Butler is the top dog and thus has the highest prices for Pontiac engine parts and if anyone has any experience working with Kauffman or any other Pontiac builders that would be a better price and get me setup right! Thank you all so much as always!

[737driver]

I used a drop base shaker and it worked out pretty good. It does make the shaker fully functional, meaning that it becomes the source for intake air. If you haven't looked already , the book "How to rebuild Pontiac Engines" show some pretty good combinations to get the HP goals you are looking for. The best advice I have gotten regarding rebuilding engines is to consider the entire engine build and what setup will work best together.

Jim

[nas t eh]

Do you only want 500HP or a little more, 461 is big enough, get the heads CNC ported to around 300cfm, plan on a cam with closer to .600 lift. Run the RPM intake and the drop base air cleaner set up. You can find all the stuff a little cheaper than from Butler. But if you get the heads and cam and everything else from them, You can have them ensure it all will work together. Also don’t cheap out on Chinese roller rockers, the other stuff yes but not the rockers.

[oldskool]

There are advantages to both the 4.21" & 4.25" stroker assemblies. Most agree that, for street use, the 4.21" stroke is more than adequate, to make 500hp or more. It uses the Pontiac 6.625" rod length, & Pontiac size rod journals & pin size. The 4.25" assembly uses rods with BBC specs on each end, usually in either 6.7" or 6.8" length. Some say the longer rods have advantages. But, they are also slightly heavier.

I've added up the cost of buying the parts separately vs buying a complete balanced assembly from Butler. I have found that there is very little to be saved.

The one advantage I do see is the option to buy pistons made of the 4032 material, rather than the 2618 material used in Ross pistons & others. The 2618 material is used for racing pistons. It expands more than the 4032 material. Therefore, many consider pistons made of the 4032 material a better choice for street driven vehicles, since the engine can be built with less piston to cylinder wall clearance.

Auto Tec brand pistons are made of this 4032 material. The difference is explained on this home page.

http://racetecpistons.com/pages/autotec.php

Auto Tec has shelf pistons listed for Pontiac stroker assemblies. And, it is said that they will move the pin location, for no additional charge. This allows the builder to achieve zero or near zero deck height, without cutting as much material off the block deck.

https://shanonsengineering.com/collections/ebay-motors-parts-accessories-car-truck-parts-engines-components-pistons-rings-rods-parts/products/auto-tec-small-block-pontiac-400-428-455-flat-top-pistons

Now, if you choose to buy the assembly parts separately, you will have to choose the crank, rods, pistons, rings, rod bearings & main bearings. I am not currently aware of any Pontiac shop or engine builder who advertises a stroker assembly which uses the Auto Tec pistons.

About the intake: With 455 or more cubic inches, it has been proven that a single plane intake works great, even for street use. If you plan to use a square bore carb, you can use a Torker 2 intake.

If you wanna use a Q-jet, you can use a Holley Street Dominator intake, or the Chinese single plane, which is said to be copied after the HSD, but without the exhaust crossover.   

A cam similar to this one should get you up to around 500hp or more, and still be very streetable.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29361765-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3316-3317-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

The "Stump Puller" cam made over 500hp with ported #11 iron heads.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1815

So, with good alum heads, you should be able to get up near 500hp, with this Butler cam. I see absolutely no reason to run .600 lift in a mostly street driven car. To me, it just puts more strain on the entire valve train. But, if max power is the goal, then a huge, barely streetable cam is called for.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29361022-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3315-3316-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24452926-butler-performance-edelbrock-custom-87cc-290cfm-aluminum-d-port-pontiac-cylinder-headspairbpi-87cc-edl-dport-290.html?ref=category:1287735

KRE also has roller cams similar to these above. Check out the HR230, HR236, & HR242.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Cams%20and%20Parts.htm

Check out the 575hp KRE engine at this link. It sounds similar to what you want. The High Port heads flow about 330cfm, right out of the box. My engine guy built a 400 block 4.5" stroker, using unported HP heads, which made 755hp.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Street%20Engines.htm

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Aluminum%20High%20Port%20Cylinder%20Heads.htm

"...I was told that I would have alittle trouble running pump gas if I wanted that power because the compression would be pretty high..."

With all due respect, if you have a budget big enuff to build a 600hp Pontiac engine, then the small cost of adding in some Torco Accelerator octane booster to your pump gas shouldn't be a problem at all. IMO

https://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/un_acce.html

https://www.amazon.com/Torco-Octane-Booster-Quarts-Accelerator/dp/B005S2BKDQ

[yellow1098]

Alittle more for sure.....500 is definitely the baseline...but 550-600 would be awesome and ideal....I was told that I would have alittle trouble running pump gas if I wanted that power because the compression would be pretty high.....I will definitely look for a better cam closer to that lift...do you have any specific ones or who I should call? Thanks so much!

[70RAIV455]

Alittle more for sure.....500 is definitely the baseline...but 550-600 would be awesome and ideal....I was told that I would have alittle trouble running pump gas if I wanted that power because the compression would be pretty high.....I will definitely look for a better cam closer to that lift...do you have any specific ones or who I should call? Thanks so much!

They all Have Cookie Cutter Recipes.
Meaning its been the same for a long time now.
If You want something different or Huge Power you will have to design your own or find a guy to do it.
I taught myself reading books & being on engine building race forums.

Pontiac V8 & Big Power on pump gas 93 never has been easy to compete with Dodge and Chevrolet at 1,000-1500 Hp where there at now.

Using Racing gasoline solves all.

[yellow1098]

I figured the combos were somewhat cookie cutter.....that's exactly why I wrote this post to ask guys like you which ways would be better...I definitely don't need 1k HP...but I figured if your spending the money why not get the most out of it...

[70RAIV455]

I figured the combos were somewhat cookie cutter.....that's exactly why I wrote this post to ask guys like you which ways would be better...I definitely don't need 1k HP...but I figured if your spending the money why not get the most out of it...

If You cruising most of the time and not racing 500 HP will feel real good.

You get against modern muscle and run down the road your going to be wanting more.

The easiest way to beat them & Win is to use a Full Race Camshaft on the street.
It is actually Reliable with 110 octane race gas used.
Most will state its impossible and bad street manners make it impossible to drive.
Only partly true.
DO NOT DRIVE SLOW>Step on it and Race to Win.

The other way with soft mild cams and pump gas you have to do your homework.

[yellow1098]

Well the plan was for the best of both worlds...get around 500-550 on motor and beat most things on the street then when someone has something serious have 100 shot to teach them a lesson..the problem with only being able to run pump gas is I drive the car a lot and I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea.

[70RAIV455]

Well the plan was for the best of both worlds...get around 500-550 on motor and beat most things on the street then when someone has something serious have 100 shot to teach them a lesson..the problem with only being able to run pump gas is I drive the car a lot and I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea.
[/quote
To Beat most things on the street it has to Rev up fairly high.
More than target Rpm has been set here at 5000-5500.

Need 6200-6500 RPM.
Take on the H car Hellcat need 7200 RPM.

6200-6500 RPM can be done without breaking the bank .

To avoid the Cookie Cutter you will need to research on your own.

I order Cams direct from the manufacturer.
Talk to the Tech guys or owners yourself.
State your goals & No Safe Zone wanted.
Race to Win.

[70RAIV455]

Well the plan was for the best of both worlds...get around 500-550 on motor and beat most things on the street then when someone has something serious have 100 shot to teach them a lesson..the problem with only being able to run pump gas is I drive the car a lot and I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea.

Yes TORCO & VP ACCELERATOR Octane Booster is expensive.
To get Max results its One quart can needed per 5 gallons of gasoline.
4 cans needed for 20 gallons of pump 93 octane.
$20 per can of the good octane booster.
$80 per tankfull + cost of 93 octane pump gas.

YOUR BETTER OFF BUYING & FILLING THE GAS TANK WITH 110 LEADED RACE GAS.
BE MONEY AHEAD.

[oldskool]

"...I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea..."


Maybe you need to look at those KRE engines again. One of the 400 block engines makes 635hp ON PUMP GAS.

Or, if you really wanna make some power, go to an aftermarket block & around 535 cubic inches. KRE shows some aftermarket block PUMP GAS N/A engines up to 800hp. You can even go with an alum block & save weight.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Street%20Engines.htm

Butler builds 'em too.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24487140-bp-crate-engine-461-501-cu-in-turn-key.html?ref=category:1267471

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24487141-bp-crate-engine-505-541-cu-in-w-iaii-block.html?ref=category:1267471

SD posts that a 535 with their "Road Paver" cam will make a "very streetable" 650hp +.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1817

Paul Vandoval can also build a big power engine. His website is down right now. But here's his FB page.

https://www.facebook.com/Sandoval-Performance-232977136739337/

Don Johnston can also build one for you.

http://www.dcimotorsports.com/services/pontiac-v8-engine-builder/

https://www.dcimotorsports.com/

And there's Paul Knippen.

https://www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors/

Bottom line is that all the power you seem to want is available in a PUMP GAS engine, if you have the money to pay for it.

 

[70RAIV455]

There is supercharging and turbocharging.

Run on pump gas and compete hard.

Latest Hotrod I seen today has a do it yourself 1000 Hp pump gas Hemi late model on the front cover.

[tajoe]

Man, you guys are hard core.
(By the way, how much power can a street tire actually transmit to the pavement?)

[yellow1098]

A whole lot...if you go from a roll ......but back to the important questions of how I get there...with that stroker kit is the difference just cam and intake with my 87cc's? Or do I need to look at that longer stroke?

[oldskool]

"...how much power can a street tire actually transmit to the pavement?..."


That's a great question. And the answer is: It all depends on the weight of the car, the suspension, and exactly which "street tire" you're running.

In the Factory Appearing Stock Tire (F.A.S.T.) racing series, there are cars running low 10's, & some even high 9's on narrow, hard, bias-ply street tires. But, the suspensions on those cars have been tweeked out to the max, within the rules, and drag strip tested, in order to obtain the best ET.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2010/10/06/f-a-s-t-racers-break-9-second-barrier/

https://www.fastdrags.com/fast-rules

https://www.facebook.com/FASTRacingSeries

Now, there are some sticky street legal tires. These will hook up MUCH better than the hard compound street tires. Nitto makes some popular sticky street tires. But, I think Mickey Thompson has the best selection. Obviously, the softer the compound, the fewer street miles you can get from a set. 

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/wheels-tires/dot-drag-radials-101-what-you-need-to-know-about-drag-radials/

[70RAIV455]

They are running 6's in the 275 Drag Radial Class.
10.5" inches wide rear tires.

The record on Leaf springs is in the 7's by a Chevy 1st Gen Camaro.

[oldskool]

"...do I need to look at that longer stroke? "


A longer stroke may not increase hp that much, but it can increase torque quite a bit, and will produce more torque at a lower rpm. With the long stroke engine, you can run less rear gear, which will make your car more streetable, if you wanna do any highway cruising. While you may not notice any difference between the 4.21 & 4.25 stroke, you will definitely notice a difference when moving up to the 4.5 stroke. My engine guy's 4.5 stroke engine made 755 peak hp @ only 5900 rpm. And it had over 700 torque, well below 5000 rpm.

But, some guys prefer less stroke & cubic inch. To make up the difference, they cam for more rpm, & use more rear gear. Some just like to hear the engine scream, at 7000rpm +. I remember seeing Jack Mullins driving a 389 4-speed Super Stock station wagon, back in '75. He'd have that 389 screamin. I didn't think a Pontiac engine could turn that many rpm & live. He said he occasionally left the line at 8200rpm. He won 2 national events that year, including the US Nationals.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Nowadays, there are lots of high rpm Pontiac racing engines in Stock & SS. Mike Morgan has a 350 powered '77 Formy that runs mid 10's. I assume the engine has to go 8000rpm +, in order to go that quick.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=344596&Filter=Year2018#indextop

Some here might say, "What do race cars have to do with this thread ?" Well, for most normal street threads, race engine info does not usually relate, at all.

BUT, since the OP in this thread seems to want a lot more power than an average street engine has, the race engine info shows what is possible, in race form. Then you have to determine what must be changed, in order to build an engine which will make lots of power, BUT also be streetable.

[70RAIV455]

Torque and Horsepower are Mathematical equal at 5250 RPM.
You can not have horsepower without torque.

It starts to get expensive anything bigger than 480 cubic inches.
Money put in becomes subjective not worth it unless Class NHRA Drag Racing & Competing with payouts.

Supercharging & Turbo Charging Prevails.

Smokey Yunick took a 283 Chevy & Single Turbo charged it for Indy.
It had over 1000 HP .
Late 1960's.

[tajoe]

"...how much power can a street tire actually transmit to the pavement?..."


That's a great question. And the answer is: It all depends on the weight of the car, the suspension, and exactly which "street tire" you're running.

In the Factory Appearing Stock Tire (F.A.S.T.) racing series, there are cars running low 10's, & some even high 9's on narrow, hard, bias-ply street tires. But, the suspensions on those cars have been tweeked out to the max, within the rules, and drag strip tested, in order to obtain the best ET.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2010/10/06/f-a-s-t-racers-break-9-second-barrier/

https://www.fastdrags.com/fast-rules

https://www.facebook.com/FASTRacingSeries

Now, there are some sticky street legal tires. These will hook up MUCH better than the hard compound street tires. Nitto makes some popular sticky street tires. But, I think Mickey Thompson has the best selection. Obviously, the softer the compound, the fewer street miles you can get from a set. 

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/wheels-tires/dot-drag-radials-101-what-you-need-to-know-about-drag-radials/

Very impressive times. But once again, how much power are those cars making? I bet not more than 500, if even that.

[oldskool]

" Very impressive times. But once again, how much power are those cars making? I bet not more than 500, if even that."

Don't guess I understand the purpose of this statement. Please explain. ???

I personally think a high 9 sec 1/4 mile time on HARD NARROW BIAS PLY TIRES, is a TREMENDOUS accomplishment.

This calculator estimates the power needed to run a 9.98 in a 3300lb car is just over 656hp. I have no idea how accurate this is. I'll post results from other calculators.

https://www.calculator.net/engine-horsepower-calculator.html?v1weight=3300&v1weightunit=pound&v1time=9.98&v1timeunit=second&calctype=et&x=73&y=22#et

This calculator agrees on 656hp. So, I assume it uses the same formula to calculate hp.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

Now, if car + driver weight is more than 3300lbs, the result will be a higher number.

This one comes at it a little differently, but also says 656hp will propel a 3300 lb car to 9.90's ET.

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/racing-calculators/

[nas t eh]

It’s not that hard,
Ported 300-320cfm aluminum heads, Road Paver or equivalent cam, single plane intake, big enough carb, free flowing exhaust, 461ci short block that can handle 600+HP. Enough cooling,

5-600HP very streetable and pump gas friendly. The more ci you have the easier and tamer it gets to have 500+HP. But 455-461ci is certainly enough.

There are specific parts that are cheaper and or a little better than the rest, there are some brands of certain parts to stay away from.

“Old School”has given great places to buy from and great advice. He is always very detailed and helpful.

[70RAIV455]

The Owner has no intention of Drag Racing at the drag strip from what I read.
So Drag Slicks are not being used.
Its a Street car & he wants to daily drive it and use No octane Booster.
Means Modern day 15's to 20's tires and rims.
Likely Road race Pro Tour layout & suspension.
He wants to play with modern Musclecars on the road highways.
Be Roll Racing or stomping on the gas at 55 -100 mph.

Try & Do what modern day Corvettes do & Vipers when they were still built new.

Need 600 Hp from what I read.

Can pick from many other combos.
No guarantees.

What has to be done is all the engine Race Math.
Select the right Heads.
Right Camshaft profile.
Can design the camshaft yourself with knowledge.
Run engine simulations.
Run Pipe Max.

Modern Performance cars pretty much gave up on Normal aspirated power.
376 cubic inches or so & up to 1,000 Hp had on Pump gas 93 octane with Boost.
The Dodge Viper was the last to make stellar N/A Power on Pump gas. Did it so well it spanked the New at the time C7 Z06 Supercharged Corvette Street Racing Live on GM's own Website.
WE CALL IT THE BIG RACE IN THE CORVETTE WORLD.
0-170 RUNS.
2011 DODGE VIPER BONE STOCK WON 7 TIMES IN A ROW.

[yellow1098]

Thank you all for your amazingly helpful and detailed responses.....your info is amazingly valuable!
I definitely do intend to go to the drag strip quite often but you are definitely correct about the street stomping and playing with modern muscle cars...I did so tonight in fact....it's not a daily driver, it's just go enjoy and hot rod around as well as go with my buddies to the track....the places to buy and race calculators are awesome!

Im definitely looking for that do my own research and info on what cam I need....I'm seeing after some of that research the cam butler suggested I put in the original parts post is to small and I need something bigger and more aggressive....what is the road paver cam?

I do in fact have PTFB front comp suspension..still have stock leafs in the rear

[70RAIV455]

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1817

[70RAIV455]

You have to decide how many cubic inches you want.
Rpm limit set.

Toughest by far to beat are modern LSX & Dodge.
That NSX.
Tesla Roadster.
Teslas P30.

[70RAIV455]

The Longer the Crank stroke the more cubic inches the Greater the Demand for Cylinder head airflow becomes.

380-450 cfm heads common place today BBC.
Some LSX.

Becomes a money game.
Big Money.

400-455 Affordable.

Boost also gets it done affordable.
Why LS took Off Race.
Turbo Boost easy for them and Ford.

[oldskool]

"...you are definitely correct about the street stomping and playing with modern muscle cars..."


With 500+ hp & around 600 torque, you'll NEED sticky rear tires. Hard compound street tires will be very dangerous, even when "stomping" from a roll !!! I tried to do a little street testing one time, with only about 400hp/500 torque. The car was my 12 sec '69 GTO bracket racer. Just had some hard street tires on it & 3.73 gears. I thought punching it from a roll would work. WRONG ! Rear immediately broke loose and began to fishtail all over the road--zero traction. Engine quickly hit the rev limiter, which was set at 5500 rpm, because of stock cast rods. I never tried that again. Did all later road testing with drag tires.

[70RAIV455]

If caught in the rain with slicks you have to stop immediately.
 
Drag Radials a little better in the rain but not much.
Limited to 60 mph light footed in rain.

[Skip Fix]

My 455 0.030 motor will do it. 320 cfm KRE CNC ported 72cc round port E heads Ultradyne lobe HFT 296/304 239/247 @ 0.050 on a 112 LS IC 108. Lunati or Bullet have these lobes1.65 Harland Sharp rockers(actual ratio 1.72). Dish Ross pistons from SD giving 10.25 CR. SCAT rods 0.010 455 crank. Torker II -had to be welded to match the taller KRE ports. Holley 850 DP jetted one size leaner than from Holley. 2" Hooker Super Comps into a Dr. Gas X 3" crossover, 3" Ultraflows, 3" Torque Tech mufflers. Good air and weighing 3750lbs and slicks runs 10.90s @ 124. A little heavier and M/T drag DOT radials 11.50@ 118 all day long in Texas heat.

[yellow1098]

Right now I have 255/50 nitto InVo's.

Skip....that's exactly the numbers I'm looking for! Only differences is I have the 87cc heads and will have the 461...where did you buy your cam from?

[oldskool]

Here is the UD master lobe list on the Bullet site.

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html

Looks like the H15 & H12 may be the lobes mentioned. They'll grind it with any LSA you want.

[Skip Fix]

I got mine from Lunati as Harold Brookshire(old owner of UD) was still there and I do not think Bullet had the lobes. I have since gotten UD lobe cam from Bullet.

[prostreet64]

Just to add my 2cents to the street traction debate. My 79 in the sig makes about 400 rwhp. I have adjustable shocks front and rear, assassin bars, the suspension loose up front to help weight transfer, and I have M/T 275-60X15 drag radials. On the street there is no traction whatsoever in 1st gear, from a roll or not. If I bring the speed up in 1st to about 30mph, shift to 2nd and then stab it, the tires will usually still spin a little and the rearend wash out before everything hooks up. Granted the 3.73 gears are a factor but 500 rwhp or more on the street, will take a lot of suspension work to even come close to hooking up even in 2nd gear. The Factory Stock and F.A.S.T. guys do some amazing things to run the #s they do on street tires, but a prepped track makes a huge difference. I have no trouble with traction at the track with 60' times in the low 1.70s

[79T/Aman]

this car has 540 hp 610 tq. street driven 461 (400 with a 4.250 stroke crank) out of the box E heads 87cc with new springs, hydraulic roller cam 230/236@.50, yes it can fry the tires at will but is not dangerous (unless the driver gets stupid).

[79T/Aman]

here is the engine, PTFB shaker scoop working, in this pic it has RARE exhaust manifolds that were used for the first 5 years now it has a set of Tribal Tubes Tri-Ys and oval exhaust.

[70RAIV455]

It's the Hardest car to build.
A dual purpose car for Road Race and Drag Race.

Compromises.
Drag Radiala are made for straight line action.
Road Race tires will not work for drag.
Has to be done on a M+S Street tire.

Huge torque its near impossible to get the power down clean.
Need Horse Power to win races.
Money is always a factor.

Comes down to camshaft timing.
Eany Mini Mino Moe typical done will not work.
Have to do the actual race engine Math.
I know it.

Need a tall 1st gear in the trans.
Muncie 4 speed is best.
Turbo 400.
No overdrive.
Let the engine Rev.
6500 -7000+.

[70RAIV455]

The Big difference is racing on the street.
Has to handle at high speeds over 140.
Not bottom out and smash the exhaust headers flat.
Have to hook up fast and clean on dirty roads.
Tire spin and you lost.

[yellow1098]

this car has 540 hp 610 tq. street driven 461 (400 with a 4.250 stroke crank) out of the box E heads 87cc with new springs, hydraulic roller cam 230/236@.50, yes it can fry the tires at will but is not dangerous (unless the driver gets stupid).

Exactly what I'm looking for Dave!  My car is even silver

[79T/Aman]

that engine uses a Torquer2 but you also could use a Kaufman Northwind intake it is on par with the Victor but only about 1/2" taller than stock.