Author Topic: hydraulic lifter expert needed  (Read 286 times)

aussieta

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hydraulic lifter expert needed
« on: February 11, 2018, 10:49:24 PM »
i have been trying to find a flutter in my exhaust for a while now
over the weekend i decided to check the lifter preload
motor has not been started for 2-3 months
several lifters i can compress by pushing on the rocker arm
several are locked solid at maximum lift
with the cam on the base circle giving the posilock half a turn from zero is opening the valve
i left number one intake overnight and the lifter did not bleed down
after hours of googling, it seems there is no consensus on which is a good lifter
my understanding is that on the base circle the lifter oil gallery is open to the oil channel in the lifter bore
so the lifter should have bled down in a matter of seconds to the preload height
oil is changed every 2-3 thousand miles, cam and lifters have done 10,000 miles
any thoughts
1978 Y84 W72 WS6

70RAIV455

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 06:50:15 AM »
Start the engine and let it warm up.
Remove the valve covers.
Start the engine and watch for oil flow from all 16 rocker arms.
Use Newspaper to catch oil splash.

If the factory Pontiac Coke Bottle neck rocker arm studs & factory Rocker jam nuts in place all you do is torque then down to 20 ft/lbs.

I like having an adjustable valvetrain.
I prefer Poly Locks.
Crower Cams Makes nice Poly Locks.
ARP Makes Nice Poly Locks.

Pioneer makes decent Poly Locks for a low buying price.

I think you have adjustable valvetrain.
Try adjusting the valves again after the engine warms up.
1/2 turn down from 0 lash on the base circle of the cam is OK.

cyber104

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 06:51:52 AM »
Hi - don't mean to ask a dumb question - but you are "chasing" the firing order right? - and are you positive that you have not already bottomed the lifter out - the top of the plunger should be tight against the retaining clip before setting lash/preload.

I've read that lifters can get "stuck" - but it's unusual.

What's confusing me is that you say that the lifter should have bled down to the preload height.  Are you saying that it should have released pressure so now the plunger is sitting slightly below the retaining clip?

In order to correctly set lifter preload the lifter needs to be sitting on the base circle.  The goal is to remove any lash first and then adjust an additional 1/2 turn.

The easiest way to do this is to set the harmonic balancer slot at 0 (zero) on the timing mark scale.  You need to confirm that you are getting ready to fire #1 (not #6).  Knowing that you are getting ready to fire #1 lets you know that both valves are completely closed on that cylinder.

Then - using the slot as a reference - make an additional mark with a silver sharpie every 90 degrees.  I used a flexible tape measure - measured the circumference of the harmonic balancer and divided by 4 to get my marks.  So now you have 4 marks on the balancer - one at 0 degrees (the slot), one at 90, one at 180 and one at 270.

Now after you set the preload on #1, you can simply follow the firing order.  By turning the crank (remember you're turning clockwise) to the 270 degree mark, you can set #8, at 180 degrees #4, at 90 degrees #3 and then the sequence repeats for 6,5,7,2.

Maybe my way isn't as exact as others - but it is MUCH better than some crazy methods I've heard.

Grumpy's garage suggests the same method I used and may describe it a bit better:  "mark the harmonic balancer every 90 degrees starting at the timing mark,on the damper aligned with the timing tab at TDC. put the engine on #1 TDC on the compression stroke and adjust both rockers with both valves closed, then rotate the engine 90 degrees clockwise as viewed from the front and set both valves on #8. Proceed in this fashion through the firing order until you have them all set (18436572). "

The Wallace Racing website gives the following instructions - not sure if they are better or worse than the method I used - I'm going to double check mine tonight using their method to see if I get the same results.

"Number 1 piston at Top Dead Center (TDC) on compression stroke.
Adjust intake valve on #2 and #7;exhaust valves #4 and #8.

Rotate crankshaft 180 degrees clockwise and adjust intake valve on #1 and #8;
exhaust valves #3 and #6.

Rotate crankshaft 180 degrees again (TDC) and adjust intake valves #3 and #4;
exhaust valves #5 and #7.

Rotate crankshaft again 180 degrees and adjust intake valves #5 and #6;
exhaust valves #1 and #2.

Use 7/16 studs with polylocks (locking nuts with a setscrew),turn down
adjuster nut slowly while spinning pushrod back and forth with other hand until
all play is removed WITHOUT pushing lifter cup down into body.You should
JUST feel the pushrod get hard to spin.Then turn an additional 1/2-1 full
turn and lock it."

Keep in mind that the +1/2 turn of preload is just fine - if you're not perfect it's OK because it would take about 3 full turns to bottom out the lifter (at least it did in my case)

Sorry for the long winded response - hopefully it helped with your question.

Chris   

« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 12:34:18 PM by cyber104 »

maltoch

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 01:41:00 PM »
like it was said...try polylocks and redjust vavle lash.
but you can try to play with each nut and detect which one has a problem with running motor.
when i built  my block i  marked each polylock with paint marks to see future problem...unscrewed nut or bolt.

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aussieta

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:28 PM »
additional info
i am using chevy studs with poly locks
confirmed number 1 tdc with stop bolt and rotor pointing to number 1 in distributor
marked dampener with tape at each 90 degree
then adjusted poly lock until gentle up down movement on pushrod gone then half turn further
now some opened the valve at this point and some compressed the lifter
some i am able to push down on the rocker maybe quarter inch others are locked tight
i ran my snake camera down the pushrod hole and the lifter is definitely stuck in the raised position , up against the wire retaining clip
firing order 18436572 rotating engine clockwise looking at frontm dissy turns anti clockwise
i cant start the engine now as i have started to strip it down
i am going to fit a new cam and lifters
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:09:49 PM by aussieta »
1978 Y84 W72 WS6

Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:28 PM »

cyber104

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 06:10:37 AM »
Sorry to hear that - sounds like you did everything correctly - wonder what locked up those lifters - you'll have to take one apart and give us a report back.

aussieta

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 03:49:39 AM »
from what i have read on the net
people remove and strip the lifter down and find nothing wrong
on reassembly they then work correctly
in my opinion they are then unreliable and should be changed out
so that is the path i am going to take
i just dont know what the cause could be
a poorly maintained engine i could understand
but my engine was hot tanked 10,000 miles ago then reassembled and oil changes every 2-3,000 miles
1978 Y84 W72 WS6

70RAIV455

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 06:03:49 AM »
from what i have read on the net
people remove and strip the lifter down and find nothing wrong
on reassembly they then work correctly
in my opinion they are then unreliable and should be changed out
so that is the path i am going to take
i just dont know what the cause could be
a poorly maintained engine i could understand
but my engine was hot tanked 10,000 miles ago then reassembled and oil changes every 2-3,000 miles
Engine sludge forms all the time.
The only way to prevent is use premium Oils. Synthetic is best.
Not all brands are created equal.

An Engine that is Raced hard you change oil every 100 miles.
What I always did.
No Lifter of Cam Lobe Failures ever.
Castrol GTX Dino 10w30 made it possible & affordable.

Something got in that lifter of your engine.
'Dirt & sludge.

You can try MMO Marvel Mystery oil added to the engine oil.
It may remove the crap dirt inside of the lifter.

70RAIV455

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 06:06:19 AM »
Your right in that Hydraulic lifter can be unreliable.
Between Sludge & Inferior china parts .


70RAIV455

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 06:11:31 AM »
When You Run Solid Flat Tappet & Solid Roller All Hydraulic lifter issues are forever gone.
A few mild street grinds are made in each.
Similar to OE Pontiac Grinds street grinds.

I only have 1 goal in mind in My TA.
Race & Win.

70RAIV455

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Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 06:16:10 AM »
Many of the Japanese engines of the 1970's to present still use Solid Lash cams.
Many do not know that.
What made them so reliable.
No hydraulic lifters ever to fail because they are full mechanic valve lash engines.

Re: hydraulic lifter expert needed
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 06:16:10 AM »
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