Author Topic: 60 over 455 cam advice  (Read 512 times)

jpe

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60 over 455 cam advice
« on: October 30, 2017, 05:50:15 AM »
First the specs that i don't want to change as i'll try to keep costs as low as possible. That's because i live outside US so i need to order everything and pay shipping, tolling and taxes for each and every part. This all about doubles the cost for a part.

- .60 over 455 74 block
- Eagle crank & rods
- Some basic level flattop pistons
- Edelbrock performer 87cc O-port heads
- Edelbrock performer rpm intake
- MSD distr
- Holley 750db
- Hooker super comp 2" primary headers with 3" exhaust tubes and mufflers
- Stock converter
- 3.08 diff
- 71 stock weight Firebird

CR is about 9:1, maybe just a bit more. 
Current cam is for some reason Edelbrock 2157.  The car is a project still and the motor is out so it would be easy to change the cam now. I have not tried the combo as i bought the car without a motor and bought the 455 separately late this summer.

I'm thinking about two options now and would need some advice what to do.

option 1:  keep the cam and buy 1.65 rockers

option 2:  keep stock 1.5 stamped rockers and buy Lunati 10510312 cam & lifter kit  (221/230 .454)

I'm quite sure that option 1 would work with my diff and stock converter, but how about option 2 ? With option 1 i'd loose quite a lot HPs/TQ compared what this combo could output i think.

Any better options keeping the costs in mind ?


btw. sorry for possible typos and written mistakes as this is not my native language.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 06:00:26 AM by jpe »

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 06:13:47 AM »
What Transmission do You Have ?
What is the Rear Gear Ratio You have ?

The stock stall on Turbo 350 transmissions is 2000 rpm
The stock stall on Turbo 400 trans is 1800 rpm.
Except the 1967-1969 L88 Corvette.
The 1969-1970 Pontiac RAIV.
And the 1965-1967 Oldsmobile Super Rocket V8 with switch pitch TH400.
Super Rocket had the most radical stall at 2800 rpm.

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 06:18:49 AM »
The Lunati Cam should make more Hp and Torque.
Desktop Dyno engine simulation would confirm.

The Edelbrock Round Port Series Heads were designed for serious drag racing.

Cams with RAIV Specs or hotter work best.

.575 to .750 valve lifts.

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 06:20:12 AM »
The current cam is likely best match with stock stall torque converter and tall rear diff gears 2.41- 3.23.

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 07:07:27 AM »
I have actually both transmissions TH350 and TH400 with stock converters.  TH350 may be the original one from the 71 bird and that is the one i'm planning to use next summer. TH400 seems to be from 350 diesel and the plan is at least to install a shift kit to it and maybe replace TH350 later if it does not hold the TQ.

Good info to hear that stock TH350 converter is 2000 stall.

3.08 rear gears, corporate 10 bolt.

I'm not sure if RAIV cam would be too much for the CR ?  That cam would be available from a local speed shop as Edelbrock's version so it would be easy solution.

 

Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 07:07:27 AM »

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 07:17:52 AM »
The current cam is likely best match with stock stall torque converter and tall rear diff gears 2.41- 3.23.

Maybe with 1.65 rockers to get some more lift and a bit of duration also.   

How much lift stock stamped 1.5 rockers allow if i'll end to change to a new cam, or is there any limit ?

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 08:28:51 AM »
Driving to work now.
Edelbrock makes a RAIV Clone tamed down.

The Round Port E heads can be used on the street.
You will never be satisfied 100 percent because they were designed for full on drag race.
3.90 - 4.30 - 4.56 gears required with a True radical Race cam.

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 12:07:01 PM »
Maybe option 2 Lunati would work better with heads then and still be driveable with stock 2000 stall.  Or then i just need to spend more and go bigger with cam, stall and gears.

LeighP

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2017, 06:47:07 PM »
I had a .040" over 455 with ported D port heads, around 9.6:1.
I ran a Summit 2802 cam with 1.65:1 rockers.....was very happy with it. Car was easy to live with on the street, yet had a ton of go and revved very quickly. I was running 3.08 rear gears.
I have to think you wouldn't be happy with a RAIV clone cam with those rear gears.
Regards,
Leigh

Sydney, Australia
1969 Pontiac Firebird 400 coupe (project)

Former Firebirds -
1971 Pontiac Firebird 455
1977 Pontiac Trans Am
1976 Pontiac Trans Am
1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 convertible
1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 coupe


nas t eh

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 07:31:37 PM »
If your changing it anyway, get a cam with RAIV duration but a lot more lift. Those heads can flow well at .600 lift, so try to find something that will get you at least .500 lift. Check the valve springs to make sure they can support that much lift and check the valve train geometry as it will most likely change and you will need new pushrods with the new lifters and cam.

Big cube, long stroke, will tame that cam way down vs if it was only a 400ci. Same thing for the 3.08 rear. If it was not an auto car with a stock convertor, I'd say get a even more duration than the RAIV cam just keep the lobe separation at 112-114 for power brakes.

If you could afford it, a big roller cam would be the way to go, but it sounds like budget won't allow.
Just remember to run old style hot rod oil like Brad Penn with it's high zinc for that flat tappet cam or loosing a lobe off the cam is a real risk.
current
73 T/A 4speed
past birds
75 T/A 455 4speed
75 T/A 400 4speed

oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2017, 10:18:22 PM »
"...Any better options keeping the costs in mind ?..."


Here in the states, the cheapest decent cam is the Summit 2802. Next up in size might be a Crane 283951. A Crower 60243 would be good, but more than twice the price of the Summit cam. A Howards 410051-14 looks good. It has just a hair more duration, and a 114 LSA. Should work good in a 9:1 455. 

Next up would be an 041 clone. These are sold under several brand names, but probably all made by the same company, CMC.

Over here, the cheapest brand is a Melling SPC-8, on Ebay. The Crower # is 60919, but cost a lot more. Crane, Lunati, Comp Cams, Edelbrock, and others,  also sell it.

At least one well know Pontiac engine builder, recommends a Lunati Voodoo for most apps. The Voodoo 268 & 276 are both commonly recommended, on the PY forum. Since everybody here seems to want more cam, because of your round port E-heads, a 276 Voodoo might satisfy some. Of the 2, I personally would prefer the smaller 268.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1777

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1776&gid=287

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-10510703?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-lunati&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvuDPBRDnARIsAGhuAmZ6yfKW7pgdyxnTqOy2kVrANZeck7Nm0vFAVXRrkQtsTJhtY2uJGycaAsToEALw_wcB

i know Summit ships overseas. Don't know about anybody else. Summit claims to match online prices, here.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 10:49:45 AM by oldskool »

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 01:37:50 AM »
Thank you all for good proposals. 
What converter you are using LeighP with Summit 2802, could it work with stock ? For any bigger cams i'm not sure if my 9:1 CR works, so it could lead to expensive machining decks down and changing to thinner head gaskets to raise compression.
I've built one low compression bbc with too much cam once and absolutely hated it, almost impossible to tune out of bad bogging and no vacuum for brakes.

If the heads want a lot of lift, Summit 2802 cam & lifter kit with 1.65 rockers do sound good. Heads should have original springs so they should allow .575 lift if piston clearance is not a problem.  Summit does ship worldwide and that is the place i have ordered most of stuff for my earlier builds. Their air mail delivery via UPS or DHL to here (Finland) is really fast but costs quite a lot, for a cam set shipping is about $70. Then there are 24% taxes and 6% toll fee on top of everything so that's why i need to be extra careful with costs and not to order parts that are wrong. My 71 is still a project and will eat a lot of money anyway, i'm now in the process of welding rust damages and changing trunk floor completely.


Edit.  Recalculating CR. Assuming that the block has not been decked, with 87cc chambers and even with 4 valve relief pistons and .042" gasket CR should actually be about 9.5:1 rather than 9:1.  So any of proposed cams should not be a problem from CR point of view.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 06:49:03 AM by jpe »

oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 11:06:28 AM »
"...Recalculating CR. Assuming that the block has not been decked, with 87cc chambers and even with 4 valve relief pistons and .042" gasket CR should actually be about 9.5:1 rather than 9:1.  So any of proposed cams should not be a problem from CR point of view."


Yeah, I get closer to 10:1 CR, when I plug in the numbers.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

Obviously, the actual deck height & gasket thickness will make a difference in CR.

Fel-Pro 1016 gaskets have a .039 crush thickness. The cheaper 8518PT gaskets have aprox .045 crush thickness.

I tend to lean towards a smaller cam, for a street 455, whereas most seem to lean toward a larger cam.

So, with this in mind, and considering the price, which you have mentioned, I'd choose the Summit 2802. Will it leave some power on the table ? Yes !

From strictly a horsepower standpoint, I'd go with the biggest cam that would provide enuff vac for power brakes.

For me, this would be something in the mid to upper 230° range @ .050 lift, and would include Rhoads lifters. But, that set-up would cost nearly 3 times the price of a K2802 cam/lifter kit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-284281

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-60244?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-crower&gclid=CjwKCAjw7MDPBRAFEiwAppdF9EheBRcQ47gTlaKrbTdjxb5sEFeacu-JsU0wc14fe3feGGz0QEjlNxoCw00QAvD_BwE

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rhl-9518l/overview/make/pontiac

If you don't already have 1.65 rockers, I wouldn't spend any on a set. Most street guys don't need the small amount of power increase they provide. Just more unnecessary strain on the valve train. IMO

If you order from Summit, I'd consider the extra expense of Crower Cam Saver lifters. They supply extra oil to the cam lobes.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66056x3-16?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-crower&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvuDPBRDnARIsAGhuAmaudlMy-y5JcbU65GaXCy0zcOJfS87Ws9WGu0hdcBpbhU0S-gtQIOwaAusMEALw_wcB
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 11:37:47 AM by oldskool »

oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2017, 11:44:55 AM »
"...What converter...with Summit 2802, could it work with stock ?...?


Yes. We ran stock 13" converters, behind our 455 bracket engines, using an 041 clone cam(Melling SPC-8) with Rhoads lifters. We launched from an 800 rpm idle. So, the 2802 should idle smooth enuff to allow the use of a stock converter.

So, that one factor alone, makes it cheaper than some of the larger cams, which might require a stall converter.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 11:47:42 AM by oldskool »

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 11:53:25 AM »
If you dont like big cams then dont use one.
If racing is not your goal or HP then a civil soft cam is the best match for you.

Sounds like 250 -300 Hp will make you happy.

Soft cam will allow you to use a stock torque converter and 3.08 gears.

Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 11:53:25 AM »

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2017, 11:55:14 AM »
You wont have anywhere near 100 Percent VE cylinder fill with a low lift soft cam so Compression ratio is not that important.

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2017, 11:56:53 AM »
Your building what Pontiac built during the Smog era with Racing E round port heads.
Tame torque engine.

oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2017, 12:26:12 PM »
Your building what Pontiac built during the Smog era with Racing E round port heads.
Tame torque engine.

Yeah, but with a lot more compression and a bigger cam than the '71-'72 455HO. Even the 2802 cam, with it's higher lift, is bigger than the cam used in the SD455. 

Torque for this engine should be aprox 500ft lbs, at 3000-3500rpm. That's torque in the range where most street driven cars can use it. Obviously, if your goal is to make the most power above 5000rpm, a bigger cam would be needed, which would require a loose converter, for a decent idle, and possibly a vac pump or some other solution for power brakes.

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2017, 02:17:34 PM »
Your building what Pontiac built during the Smog era with Racing E round port heads.
Tame torque engine.

Yeah, but with a lot more compression and a bigger cam than the '71-'72 455HO. Even the 2802 cam, with it's higher lift, is bigger than the cam used in the SD455. 

Torque for this engine should be aprox 500ft lbs, at 3000-3500rpm. That's torque in the range where most street driven cars can use it. Obviously, if your goal is to make the most power above 5000rpm, a bigger cam would be needed, which would require a loose converter, for a decent idle, and possibly a vac pump or some other solution for power brakes.
I did say to use a little cam Oldskool for him.
The trick with Racing E Heads Round ports is not to have the Car Fall Flat on its Face at WOT with a Small Camshaft profile.
The Airflow Velocity is not as good aa factory iron.
They are a Copy Duicate of Arnie Beswicks RAIV Racing Heads.
Port volume is Large.
He has 3.08 gears..On a tight budget.

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2017, 03:31:38 PM »
Thank you all again for great points here.

I bought the motor as is and it had the heads installed with quite good other parts. I was already heading towards bbc because i had no Pontiac engine and already had most parts for bbc but then this motor came available with decent price and i changed the plans right away. If i'd be building the motor from zero point i'd choose smaller ported heads for sure for planned street use.
At this point the target is to get all available usable power that still work with stock converter and gears. Maybe later i'll go bigger with converter stall and gears. At that point changing the cam again is not a big deal. But for now that 500 ft lbs at 3000rpm would sound really good for the gearing and i don't need to spin the motor above 5000rpm even if those Eagle forged h profile rods most likely would take more.

Current too small cam with the CR may cause problems with local pump gas, so it seems that Summit 2802 with Crower lifters could be the solution. I don't have 1.65 rockers yet, so if stock stamped 1.5 ones are ok with the lift i think i'll use them for now. However polylocks would be nice to have, but there is no point to order just them i think.

Ok, its almost mid night here now, so i'll come back to this tomorrow after thinking this more. The plan is to  order parts from Summit this week so the project can continue in a time.

oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2017, 05:41:42 PM »
"...However polylocks would be nice to have, but there is no point to order just them i think..."


Poly-locks are the best way to assure that your rockers will maintain their adjustment. They don't cost much, Summit can just put 'em in the box with some other parts, and probably won't increase shipping charges much, if at all.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4606-16/overview/

Don't know what type nuts or rockers you have now. But, I assume that 7/16 poly-locks, about 1" long or a little over, will work with stock rockers or the roller tip rockers. But, I've never used those alum heads. So, I have no idea how long the studs are, or exactly what length the poly-locks would need to be.

But, if you can find 16 BBC stock type rocker nuts that won't back off, they will work.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 06:03:18 PM by oldskool »

70RAIV455

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 07:23:02 PM »
Use The BBC Locking Jam nuts with 7/16 " inch studs.
Do not use them with ARP Brand Rocker Studs.
You will ruin the Rolled threads on the ARP rocker studs.
Its right there in print on the ARP website and paper catalog.

ARP studs are only made for Polylocks.

LeighP

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2017, 01:37:13 AM »
Converter for my 455 with 2802 cam - was custom built to flash stall behind the 455 to around 2500RPM....it was purposely built tight so it didn't slip under normal driving...took full throttle torque to make it stall at 2500. The car sat at lights like any other car in gear, drove totally normally...no hint of slipping TC....yet give it a boot full of throttle and watch out.
I'm a big fan of having a converter built to suit the application, not buying an "off the shelf' job.
Regards,
Leigh

Sydney, Australia
1969 Pontiac Firebird 400 coupe (project)

Former Firebirds -
1971 Pontiac Firebird 455
1977 Pontiac Trans Am
1976 Pontiac Trans Am
1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 convertible
1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 coupe


jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2017, 04:10:12 AM »
I'll order Summit 2802 cam with Crower cam saver lifters and either Scorpion rockers or just polylocks for stock rockers. It depends on what the total cost with shipping will be with or without rockers. And if converter feels too tight for the combo i'll get another at the time when i'll change to TH400 possibly after next driving season.

Thanks once again and i'll report how it works when the car is ready to drive hopefully early next summer.  Maybe i'll continue about the Firebird project in another thread with couple of photos. There is quite a lot of metal and paint work involved with this one.

oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2017, 07:39:28 AM »
"... Scorpion rockers ..."


Their Endurance series rockers are said to be low profile, so that they will fit under stock valve covers. Also said to be lighter than their regular rockers. Description looks like they might be a little better, for a street Pontiac. But, they do cost a little more.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp3052/overview/make/pontiac

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2017, 07:40:25 AM »
Ok, Summit 2802 cam with Crower lifters and polylock set on top of gaskets and ignition hardware etc is on the way from Summit.
Expected delivery in 2-4 days, but delivery cost $99. It's not cheap to move packets around the world.





oldskool

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2017, 11:09:53 AM »
It's not cheap to move packets around the world.

Hey, it's cheaper than moving yourself over here.  :grin:

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2017, 02:22:16 PM »
It's not cheap to move packets around the world.

Hey, it's cheaper than moving yourself over here.  :grin:

Oh yes, but moving myself with aircraft is more fun.
Thanks for good advice, i'm sure this will be nice to drive in street. Just need to install cam after it arrives and also figure correct 71 blue paint for block or accept current. Then it's ready to be dropped in place.


2017-10-29_08-03-55 by Jii Eee, on Flickr


by Jii Eee, on Flickr

« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 02:32:21 PM by jpe »

72blackbird

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2017, 05:37:35 PM »
My build is very similar to yours, except my 87cc E-heads were ported to SD Performance to flow around 325cfm, and can support around 650 hp. I'm also running Probe flattops and 4340 Tomahawk A-beams. That being said, I'm running SD's "Road Paver" roller cam, which is not exactly a cheap or low rpm cam. I will be running a port-matched TII with either a 850 DP or 950 DP. 1.65 ratio full roller rockers are also on the menu- shooting for around 600-625 hp.

Stock E-heads with the right cam are more than capable of making 500 hp/ 500 lb-ft. As far as intake goes, I would not worry about low end torque and running a dual plane intake- an RPM will create more than enough torque to blow your tires off if you punch it. Even a beefed up 10-bolt can handle this power- but stronger axles are a must, and c-clip eliminators are a very good idea.

Geno

1977 SE T/A (sold :( )
1974 455 T/A (sold :( )
1972 Esprit restomod
1976 T/A restomod
1975 Formula 400 4-speed

jpe

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Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2017, 01:41:43 AM »
Your combo sounds real strong. I had 850db in my 454 BBC and it worked really good also from low and was enough for more than 6000rpm.

I'm not planning to change axles yet so let see what happens. Rear tires will be 275 low profile normal street pattern so the traction is not necessary enough to bend axles.
There was a rebuilt F-body 12bolt axle with some disc brakes installed for sale here in local forum but i did think it too long so it was sold. In USDs the asking price was about $2000  :shock:
I started to think that maybe with less money my 10 bolt could be beefed up strong enough.

The shipment did arrive so after finishing replacing trunk floor pan i'll change the cam next.


2017-11-13_09-37-43 by Jii Eee, on Flickr


2017-11-12_05-33-27 by Jii Eee, on Flickr

Re: 60 over 455 cam advice
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2017, 01:41:43 AM »
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