Author Topic: 750 Q Jet vs 800  (Read 700 times)

crashdawg

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750 Q Jet vs 800
« on: October 07, 2017, 12:32:08 PM »
Hey all.question for ya. 
When we built my 400 (mild, not super big 400+ hp) I ended up using the Q jet off my 301. It was a fresh built carb so I figured it would save me a few $$$.
So I used it.  I've never been 100% happy with the build but we are slowly getting things lined out, swapped torque converter and having a shift kit installed.  Do you think I need to look for a 800 Q jet?  Will 50 extra make much difference?  CD.



its not perfect but its mine

Box

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 01:03:22 PM »
Odds are 750 is enough, but here's a good calculator for you to use and figure out what you need: http://www.wallaceracing.com/intakecfm.php

1996 Pontiac Firebird Formula hardtop 6-speed

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 01:44:57 PM »
Hey all.question for ya. 
When we built my 400 (mild, not super big 400+ hp) I ended up using the Q jet off my 301. It was a fresh built carb so I figured it would save me a few $$$.
So I used it.  I've never been 100% happy with the build but we are slowly getting things lined out, swapped torque converter and having a shift kit installed.  Do you think I need to look for a 800 Q jet?  Will 50 extra make much difference?  CD.
Iam going to have to look at the DD2000Engine simulator runs I did for you earlier this summer.
Generally 750cfm is enough for low rpm street performace.
Cams are too mild used here and rpms too low to take advantage of an 800 cfm Q-jet.

In a 455 an 800 cfm Q-jet helps at 5700 -6800 Rpms.
In a 400 an 800cfm Q-jet helps at 6,000-7200 Rpms.

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2017, 07:32:51 PM »
If your 301 Q-jet came on a 301, it IS an 800cfm. I think all '76-up Pontiac Q-jets are 800cfm, including those that came on 301, 350, 400, & 455 engines. But, the 301 models had to be calibrated for the 301. This required different jets, metering rods, etc. So, for optimum performance, a 301 Q-jet would need some mods, in order to be correctly dialed in, for a larger engine. 

But, 750cfm is plenty for 400 & 455 Pontiac street/strip & most strip only cars, down into the mid 10's. There are even 9 & high 8 sec Pontiac powered Super Stock drag cars running 750 Q-jets. I never ran an 800 on any drag car I had. All were 750. So, I know they are good to at least high 11 sec powered street/strip cars.

maltoch

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2017, 04:47:08 AM »
on my 301 carb ....79 are 72 main jets...80  are 70 main jets ...don't ask me why.
i replaced my aac...idle was off...i must redrilled tge idle tube...firdt receipt in cluff ruggles book.
you surely need the receipt 2.

from what i know for a 400 with a 301 rochester....idles tubes need to be redrilled or replaced...100% sure...
stock main jets are 74...so you surely needs 76 78 or more main jets size
for the secondaries meterings rods...the biggest dx rods that could be find on 301 turbo carb work on 400 stock engine...flaps tensiin must be readjust...
that mean that your secondaries rods nned to be bigger.

if you didn't redrilled the idle tubes...you have difficulties to obtain a good idle and you compensate by adjusting the timing.
if you you use 72 jets...they cant't be enough
then...after these 2 settings...you could work on secondaries rods.
I AM FRENCH AND LIVE IN FRANCE
job :champagne
food : snails, frogs and fromage.
hobbies : 79 formula

Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2017, 04:47:08 AM »

crashdawg

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2017, 02:08:38 PM »
Anyone suggest who can set this up the way it needs to be for my motor?


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LeighP

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2017, 02:38:37 PM »
Cliff Ruggles......but be prepared for a wait, he's popular.
Regards,
Leigh

Sydney, Australia
1969 Pontiac Firebird 400 coupe (project)

Former Firebirds -
1971 Pontiac Firebird 455
1977 Pontiac Trans Am
1976 Pontiac Trans Am
1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 convertible
1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 coupe


crashdawg

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2017, 04:30:29 PM »
Cliff Ruggles......but be prepared for a wait, he's popular.
ive heard only good about him.  I sent in a quote form.  I know he's high dollar, Not sure it's worth the money to change.  Will see


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Aus78Formula

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2017, 06:08:26 PM »
I found him helpful discussing ideas and setups for engine being built. In the end I had him post out a kit with suitable extras for a more local rebuild.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2017, 07:09:30 PM »
You can tune yourself reading the spark plugs And using a Wideband AFR Air Fuel Ratio Gauge like from AEM.

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2017, 08:00:28 PM »
Anyone suggest who can set this up the way it needs to be for my motor?

The SMI guy owns a Pontiac & gets good reviews from Pontiac guys. Also quite a bit cheaper than Cliff. He's on the West Coast.

http://www.smicarburetor.com/products/sfID1/85/sfID2/86/sfID3/9

Everyday Performance also gets good reviews. He's on the East Coast.

http://www.everyday-performance.com/quadrajet_carburetors.htm

« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 08:06:06 PM by oldskool »

2genbob

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 08:34:23 AM »
Don't put any thought into the CFM of a Rochester carb.  GM used 750 CFM carbs on everything from a 301 to a 500 ci Caddy.  Even overhead cam 6 cyl Pontiacs and Buicks  It's not like a Holley.  The Rochester should be looked at like a variable CFM carb.  Per Lars Grimsrud  (an excellent source for Rochester knowledge, tuning and rebuilding) if the engine can't handle all the cfm, the secondaries simply don't open all the way.  The secondaries only open as much as the engine can handle.

My suggestion is to download Lars' excellent technical paper and tune yourself per his suggestions and knowledge.



« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 08:43:29 AM by 2genbob »

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 09:24:23 AM »
"...GM used 750 CFM carbs on everything from a 301..."

Just to maintain accurate info, I think that by the time the 301 came along, all Pontiac Q-jets were considered 800cfm models. The difference is the size of the primary throats. The primary venturi/throttle bores of the 800cfm, were a larger diameter than those of the 750cfm. There are good pics showing this difference, at the link below.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Quadrajet

If this info is not correct, somebody please post a link to the correct info. 

"n 1?EF# the passenger car Q-?ets changed to the *H* design. 7ll ?ontiac *H* carbs are /00 cfm. 3uic%IBldsI?adillac also made common use of the /00 cfm design.

Wow ! I copied a statement that Lars made, and that's the way it turned out. :lol:

Anyhow, you can read it for yourself, by clicking on this link. He says that all the late '70's Pontiac Q-jets were 800cfm models.

https://www.scribd.com/document/252459758/Q-Jet-Tuning-Paper


"...Even overhead cam 6 cyl Pontiacs..."

Not sure if the 230 cube version was the smallest cube engine to ever come from the factory with a Q-jet, or not. My guess is that it probably was. Anybody know, for sure ?

Q-jets also came on some 4 cyl marine engines.

http://flyingfishcarburetors.com/Y40-1E4Mercruiser.htm
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:31:20 AM by oldskool »

2genbob

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 06:58:16 AM »
oldskool:  not disputing your input.  Here's a quote from one of Lar's papers.

Most Q-Jets are 750 cfm carbs.  This is more airflow than most small block engines can ever handle.  Yet, GM used Q-Jets on everything from Overhead Cam 6-cylinder Pontiacs and Buick V-6’s, to 500 cube Caddys.  How?

The secondary airvalve on the Q-Jet effectively makes the Q-Jet a variable-cfm carb.  The spring windup of the airvalve combined with the bleed-off of the choke pulloff diaphragm allow the secondaries to open only as much as the engine can handle.  Thus, if the engine can’t handle all of the cfm, the secondaries simply don’t open all the way.

I used his papers to rebuild two Quadrajets, one is on my TATA and runs great.  I still think that anyone who can follow a cooking recipe instructions can rebuild a carb.  I did and the Lar's papers were what I used as a guide for rebuilding and tuning.  Start by returning the carb to original specs as most cars will run just fine that way.

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 10:27:19 AM »
" oldskool:  not disputing your input.  Here's a quote from one of Lar's papers.

Most Q-Jets are 750 cfm carbs...."

I have no problem with that statement, at all. I agree that MOST of the Q-jets made were the 750cfm, NOT the 800cfm models. I think the first true 800's were the 455 Buick models, in the very early '70's.(I'm not counting the very rare '71 Pontiac Q's which did not have the outer booster rings.) Then the VERY few SD455 engines had 800's. So, up thru the first half of the '70's, 800's made up only a VERY small % of the total Q-jet number.

From '76 forward, most(if not all) Pontiac/Olds/Buick Q's were 800cfm. But, there were still 750's being made. I assume that most of these were used on Chevy models.

And, although the 800cfm models had the bigger primary venturi/throttle bores, I realize that not all engines used the same amount of air/fuel mixture flow. Obviously a 455 could flow more than a 301. But, that does not change the fact that a '76 455 used what we call an 800cfm Q-jet, AND the 301 engines also used what we call an 800cfm Q-jet. That don't mean the 301's used 800cfm of flow. It just means that the basic dimensions of the carb were the same. OBVIOUSLY, the calibration & tuning was MUCH different for the Q's used on big cube engines vs small cube engines.

A 301 Q-jet could be modified to run on a 455, exactly like an original 455 Q-jet.

Back in the '60's, they limited the amount the butterflies would open, on Firebird engines, so that they could rate the horsepower lower. Therefore, although those Q's were rated at the same 750cfm which the GTO Q's had, in stock form, they would not flow as much air/fuel mixture.

One of the biggest advantages of the Q-jet design is the ability to use them on different size engines, with just different calibrations for each particular engine, rather than having to use a completely different cfm model for small medium & large cube engines.

Consider the square bore carbs. A mild 350 sbc engine might need only a 600 to 650 cfm model. A 400 sbc or 396 BBC might need a 700 to 750cfm. A 427 or 454 BBC might need a 780-800cfm. A 572 BBC might need an 850 to 1050 cfm.

The same 750cfm Q-jet can be used on a factory Pontiac 350, 400, 428, or 455, and 9-10 second drag cars, just by using different calibrations, mods & tuning. The Q-jet is the most versatile carb ever made. IMO
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 10:32:09 AM by oldskool »

Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 10:27:19 AM »

crashdawg

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2017, 02:08:14 AM »

My suggestion is to download Lars' excellent technical paper and tune yourself per his suggestions and knowledge.
Lars? And do you know where i can Download this? thank you..CD


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70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2017, 06:07:49 AM »

My suggestion is to download Lars' excellent technical paper and tune yourself per his suggestions and knowledge.
Lars? And do you know where i can Download this? thank you..CD
[/quoteLars is from the Corvette World.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 06:19:37 AM »
The only 800 cfm Q-jets I know exist for sure is the 1970-71 Buick GS 455 Stage 1.
The 1971 455 HO 455.
The 1973-74 SD455.

I own a 1974 SD455 800cfm.  7044270
I have the original 750 cfm off my Trans am.
7040273.
There is a big difference in primary bore size side by side.
They are not for sale.
I know the values too.
Worth more than my Corvette.

As much as I like Q-jets can be equaled and exceeded by a Holley 4150 Street Avenger I have found.
Very similar to what was used on the Pontiac Ram Air 5.

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 01:27:57 PM »
" The only 800 cfm Q-jets I know exist for sure is the 1970-71 Buick GS 455 Stage 1..."

According to the info I can find, the '70 models had a 750 & the '71's had an 800.


"...The 1971 455 HO 455..."

I've read that some of those carbs were also used on some 400 manual trans engines. The were considered 800cfm, only because they were made without the outer booster rings, in the primary venturi. These proved to be not very good for street use. So, they were discontinued.

https://books.google.com/books?id=lThCgk-YSbQC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=what+engines+used+the+1971+pontiac+800cfm+q-jet&source=bl&ots=Jj5hlzYrhs&sig=V55J68nd-8dx2R0b6vHgA5e_8VI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjznY2crO7WAhVFylQKHWqfDiE4ChDoAQg1MAI#v=onepage&q=what%20engines%20used%20the%201971%20pontiac%20800cfm%20q-jet&f=false

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 01:38:02 PM by oldskool »

2genbob

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2017, 03:22:44 PM »

My suggestion is to download Lars' excellent technical paper and tune yourself per his suggestions and knowledge.
Lars? And do you know where i can Download this? thank you..CD

Do your Google for lars grimsrud and download what you like in .pdf format.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2017, 04:53:01 PM »
" The only 800 cfm Q-jets I know exist for sure is the 1970-71 Buick GS 455 Stage 1..."

According to the info I can find, the '70 models had a 750 & the '71's had an 800.


"...The 1971 455 HO 455..."

I've read that some of those carbs were also used on some 400 manual trans engines. The were considered 800cfm, only because they were made without the outer booster rings, in the primary venturi. These proved to be not very good for street use. So, they were discontinued.

https://books.google.com/books?id=lThCgk-YSbQC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=what+engines+used+the+1971+pontiac+800cfm+q-jet&source=bl&ots=Jj5hlzYrhs&sig=V55J68nd-8dx2R0b6vHgA5e_8VI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjznY2crO7WAhVFylQKHWqfDiE4ChDoAQg1MAI#v=onepage&q=what%20engines%20used%20the%201971%20pontiac%20800cfm%20q-jet&f=false
I am recalling Q-jet Info from Doug Roes  ROCHESTER CARBURATOR Book Oldskool.
I think it was published 1988.

Grand73Am

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2017, 07:59:36 PM »
From Cliff Ruggle's book: "With very few exceptions, all front inlet Q-jets (non-ECM) released in and after 1975 have the larger (800cfm) castings."

Also from Cliff: "The bottom line is that there is no performance difference between a fully prepared 1976 and newer large casting and the 73-74 Pontiac Super Duty carbs, which are among the very best high performance carbs ever produced. The newer units actually have a few advantages over the SD carb..."

Crashdawg, if you're handy and are willing to give it a try, you can rebuild and modify your own carb for better performance, with help from owning and reading Cliff's book "how to build and modify Rochester Quadra-jet carburetors". When you're ready to rebuild your Q-jet and need to buy a high quality rebuild kit, call Cliff. Tell him what you have and he'll tell you what needs to be done and sell you the best parts to do it. He doesn't mind giving free advice to those who are actually buying parts at the time. He has a forum on his website, cliffshighperformance.com , for questions and answers anytime. I've bought several kits from him, and got his advice for  modifying my carbs for my situations, and they're working great and reliable.
Steve F.

oldskool

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 09:38:10 PM by oldskool »

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2017, 09:19:51 PM »
I dont think it really matters much 750 vs 800Cfm Q-jet for most.
You have to be turning high rpms to take full advantage of a 800cfm.
Most are not racing here.
Street cars have been built.
Reliable was chosen.
If anything all Pontiacs stock suffer from inadequate exhaust systems.
Where the money should be spent.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2017, 09:23:36 PM »
The way a Q-jet works is like a Holley vacuum secondary carb.
The engine only takes in what air needs.
On a Q-jet that is the Secondary air door determines.

A Holley 4150 Mechanical seconday or Dominator guarentees full 4-barrel opening every time.
They work best on full race engines.
Mild cams not.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 09:26:32 PM »
I have owned the later Trans am 1975-81 Q-jets.
I used to get them from junkyard TAs in the 1990s for $10.
Had a pile of them.
All primary bores were small compared to my SD455 Q-jet.
What others claim Is Ok.
I dont care.

Seen same as Oldskool.
Just saying.

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 09:52:07 PM »
I have owned the later Trans am 1975-81 Q-jets.
I used to get them from junkyard TAs in the 1990s for $10.
Had a pile of them.
All primary bores were small compared to my SD455 Q-jet.
What others claim Is Ok.
I dont care.

Seen same as Oldskool.
Just saying.

What you decide to think is up to you. But, all the Q-jet experts, including Cliff Ruggles say that the primary bores of all the 800cfm Q-jets, except the '71 455HO model, were exactly the same size, from the factory.

So, you may think your SD455 Q-jet was bigger. But all the experts say it wasn't.

No offense meant. Just stating the facts, for forum users.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 10:04:46 PM »
I have owned the later Trans am 1975-81 Q-jets.
I used to get them from junkyard TAs in the 1990s for $10.
Had a pile of them.
All primary bores were small compared to my SD455 Q-jet.
What others claim Is Ok.
I dont care.

Seen same as Oldskool.
Just saying.

What you decide to think is up to you. But, all the Q-jet experts, including Cliff Ruggles say that the primary bores of all the 800cfm Q-jets, except the '71 455HO model, were exactly the same size, from the factory.

So, you may think your SD455 Q-jet was bigger. But all the experts say it wasn't.

No offense meant. Just stating the facts, for forum users.
I took them all aoart Oldskool.
Measued the Main Q-jet Body primary throttle bore size..
Exact same as my 1970 Trans Am carb 750.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 10:07:02 PM »
Believe me I was looking for any Edge against the Chevy Guys local.
SD 455 Q-jet I found from a guy on Hemmings Motor News 1995.


70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2017, 10:11:21 PM »
Doug Roe is THE MAIN ROCHESTOR Q-jet Engineer.

I got his Info on identifying 800 cfm Qjets from his Book..
Maybe Doug Roe Lied.
But I doubt it.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2017, 10:25:19 PM »
Just to give a clue what it was like in the 1990s with a 70 Trans Am surrounded by Chevy Guys.
All were 10 second track cars.
1 was 9 seconds.
All I ever heard was Pontiacs are Slow.
Drop a Chevy engine in and it will be fast.

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2017, 11:20:20 PM »
Doug Roe is THE MAIN ROCHESTOR Q-jet Engineer.

I got his Info on identifying 800 cfm Qjets from his Book..
Maybe Doug Roe Lied.
But I doubt it.

I have had a Doug Roe book for many years. On pages 108 & 109 he lists the primary venturi sizes of the 750cfm Q-jets as 1 3/32 ", and the 800cfm as 1 7/32".

The Class Racer Info site shows that a '73 SD455 Q-jet & a '78 400 Q-jet both had the same big venturi size.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/EngineSpecs.aspx?ENGINE=2080&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/EngineSpecs.aspx?ENGINE=317&MAKE=Pontiac

But, a '73 D-port 455 Q-jet had the smaller 750 cfm venturi size.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/EngineSpecs.aspx?ENGINE=2079&MAKE=Pontiac

So, again, believe who and what you want. But the fact is, that a factory SD455 Q-jet was no bigger than a '76-'79 Pontiac Q-jet, or any other large venturi 800cfm Q-jet.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2017, 04:35:24 AM »
Well then if I believe everything I read then a 800 cfm Qjet alone will give all 1000 hp.

70RAIV455

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2017, 04:44:16 AM »
You know Oldskool we are a couple of Dinasours now.
There is not a single car over on Performance Years that can compete against on the Street against modern muscle on the here at night.
Cars with over 2000 Hp.
Cliff does not stand a chance.
He runs 11s.
Call in Big Chief with his Crow & Titanium Pro Mod Bird.
Street Outlaws Required.
The Boss is building a 2500hp racecar this winter.
I am building the engine for him.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 04:47:41 AM by 70RAIV455 »

oldskool

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Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2017, 09:11:03 AM »
I could be wrong, but I don't think many guys here care about 2000+ hp race cars.

Most are street guys, just wanting a very streetable engine, with decent power, to burn rubber occasionally.

Re: 750 Q Jet vs 800
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2017, 09:11:03 AM »
You can help support TAC!