Author Topic: hi comp 455 street/strip  (Read 2256 times)

455 WS6

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hi comp 455 street/strip
« on: November 30, 2016, 11:21:53 PM »
I am building a 455 with the goal of MAX "power for pennies" in mind. I do have a budget but i will take as long as needed to do this RIGHT the first time. I am well aware that small chambered heads on a flat top 455 is past 11:1 compression. I plan on using a set of #13 D-Ports that are rebuilt and have hardened valve seats. I'm dead set on making these work. I am prepared to use lead additive when i fill up with premium pump gas.

https://www.amazon.com/Motor-Medic-M5012-Lead-Substitute/dp/B002008NWA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1480477991&sr=8-2&keywords=lead+additive

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-60202-Lead-Substitute/dp/B000A8FJ12/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000A8FJ12&pd_rd_r=2SAG2HG12A747N15C9BV&pd_rd_w=KDNBg&pd_rd_wg=puLqR&psc=1&refRID=2SAG2HG12A747N15C9BV

My question is, what internal parts MUST be replaced so i can avoid turning this motor into a ticking time bomb?

Can the stock cam be used from 73-74 blocks? (they are smoggers compared to '71 and '72) What rods should i use to replace the cast ones?  I've read about too many stories of spun bearings with little mileage after rebuild, pistons with "hammer like" impressions from detonation, cast rods snapped, etc. I would love to avoid these by ANY means. You purists out there, your advice is greatly appreciated. 8)
True Pontiac - No replacement for displacement,
everything else is just a cheby.

TheCougarine

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 11:40:40 PM »
There plenty on here that are much more knowledgeable than myself and I'm sure they'll chime in but I have to ask two things. Do you know how much that lead substitute will actually raise the octane of a tank of 93. I know theres a lot of speculation about how well and to what degree that kind of stuff actually works. Second, is there a reason you want to use a stock cam? It sounds like you're trying to build a performance motor and I would think that money would be well spent on a good aftermarket cam.

oldskool

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2016, 07:17:30 PM »
"...I am prepared to use lead additive when i fill up with premium pump gas..."

Since you have hardened valve seat inserts you don't need lead substitute. What you need is more octane. Only ways I know to get it is with E-85, or mix some racing gas with your pump gas, or use some Torco Accelerator octane booster. The Torco is one of the very few additives which will ACTUALLY increase the octane enuff to make a difference. Of the 3 choices, I'd choose the Torco.

https://www.google.com/search?q=does+torco+accelerator+work&rlz=1CAACAO_enUS682US682&oq=does+torco+acc&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0.10127j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Best-Fuel-Additive-Octane-Booster-Torco-Accelerator-/190494524157?hash=item2c5a5bc2fd:g:NyYAAOxyFrNRzQN~&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TORCO-UL-ACCELERATOR-CASE-OF-6-32oz-CANS-/222255510776?hash=item33bf75f4f8:g:tUgAAOSwwPhWiaPX&vxp=mtr

Even with the Torco, I'd run dish pistons, to reduce compression. One of the cheapest nice 455 dish shelf pistons is the Icon brand # IC889. These have a small 15cc dish.

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/icon-ic889-std-forged-dish-pistons-4-150-bore.html

https://www.rpmmachine.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=6225

But, to get by without higher octane fuel, you'll need custom pistons, with a larger dish. Auto-Tec/Race-Tec brand are probably the cheapest 455 custom pistons. Ross is probably the highest priced brand.

https://shanonsengineering.com/collections/ebay-motors-parts-accessories-car-truck-parts-engines-components-pistons-rings-rods-parts/products/auto-tec-small-block-pontiac-400-428-455-flat-top-pistons

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453535-ross-racing-custom-piston-set-any-bore-any-stroke-flat-dish-or-dome-set.html

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

"...Can the stock cam be used from 73-74 blocks?..."

Yes. But I would not recommend it. Those cams are too small for any 455 performance application. They have a dead smooth idle, and no power much past 4500rpm. The only decent Non SD 455 cam was the 068. And it was only used from '70-'72. And even the 068 is too small for a 455. They run out of steam below 5000rpm. The very cheapest decent 455 cam/lifter combo is the Summit K2802. This cam is sort of a high lift version of the 744 grind, which was used in some 400 Ram Air stick engines & the SD455's.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k2802

Next cheapest decent 455 cam is a Melling SPC-8, which is an 041 RA4 clone. They usually sell for about $100 on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Camshaft-Stock-MELLING-SPC-8-fits-68-70-Pontiac-Firebird-6-6L-V8/131527250214?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3Dc409856de02f4b93862af3902e3adff1%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D28%26sd%3D261670106436

The Summit lifters are among the cheapest. But I prefer the Rhoads, with the Super Lube feature. Next on my list would be either the Crowers with the Cam Saver feature, or the Hylift Johnson 951R.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rhl-9518l/overview/make/pontiac

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crower/258/66056X3-16/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710576158&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-194671897271:pla-177199366631&catargetid=230006180003463839&cadevice=c&gclid=Cj0KEQiAsf_BBRDMpoOHw4aSq4QBEiQAPm7DL4XiBFqUCgivMZDhlTpjAn4CsE3kZaya2tEV4sq9gF0aAl7_8P8HAQ

http://hylift-johnson.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/HyLift-Johnson-Lifter-Catalog_2014.pdf

"...What rods should i use to replace the cast ones?..."

The cheapest forged rods are the RPM 5140 I-beams @ $300.

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae5140stockrod-2.html

The RPM H-beams are lighter, stronger, and can have floating pins. They are $400.

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae4340steelhbeam-2.html

I prefer to shim the spring in a Melling M54DS oil pump, to increase the oil pressure about 10 lbs, when using a 3.25" main block. Or, you can buy a pump with an 80lb spring. But, some engine builders prefer to use less clearance & stick with 60lb pressure. I'd also go with a new Melling oil pump driveshaft.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melling-OE-Type-Replacement-Oil-Pump-M54D-S-/151435284984?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

https://www.amazon.com/Melling-M54DS-Replacement-Oil-Pump/dp/B000C4PO6E

https://www.amazon.com/Melling-IS54A-Oil-Pump-Driveshaft/dp/B000C4LRR4/ref=pd_sim_263_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000C4LRR4&pd_rd_r=26RKRFP478681GXR2QJT&pd_rd_w=t9Pwt&pd_rd_wg=pFqX4&psc=1&refRID=26RKRFP478681GXR2QJT

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MEL0/IS54A/02339.oap?year=1958&make=Pontiac&model=Chieftain&vi=1351000&ck=Search_02339_1351000_-1&pt=02339&ppt=C0145

"...I plan on using a set of #13 D-Ports that are rebuilt and have hardened valve seats. I'm dead set on making these work..."

So be it. But 6x-8 heads are a much better pump gas choice. They can be used with flat top pistons & premium pump gas. But, it's your build.

Here's what I consider a good basic 455 pump gas build. With forged rods & pistons, it's just under $5,000. Will probably make about 400hp @ around 5000rpm, & 500ft lbs of torque @ just below 3500rpm. With this build, I'd wanna include one piece stainless valves, rather than the 2-piece factory valves. That would probably add $100-$150 to the price.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Long_Block.html





« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 08:09:26 PM by oldskool »

455 WS6

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2016, 04:06:46 PM »
Do you know how much that lead substitute will actually raise the octane of a tank of 93.

Im not sure. It seems from the reviews, it does the job. But i myself havent tried it.

Second, is there a reason you want to use a stock cam? It sounds like you're trying to build a performance motor and I would think that money would be well spent on a good aftermarket cam.

I was just wondering if it would work or not. Most likely not gonna use stock one.

Since you have hardened valve seat inserts you don't need lead substitute. What you need is more octane. Only ways I know to get it is with E-85, or mix some racing gas with your pump gas, or use some Torco Accelerator octane booster. The Torco is one of the very few additives which will ACTUALLY increase the octane enuff to make a difference. Of the 3 choices, I'd choose the Torco.

Lead additive wont raise octane? I was always told it did.




https://www.google.com/search?q=does+torco+accelerator+work&rlz=1CAACAO_enUS682US682&oq=does+torco+acc&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0.10127j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Best-Fuel-Additive-Octane-Booster-Torco-Accelerator-/190494524157?hash=item2c5a5bc2fd:g:NyYAAOxyFrNRzQN~&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TORCO-UL-ACCELERATOR-CASE-OF-6-32oz-CANS-/222255510776?hash=item33bf75f4f8:g:tUgAAOSwwPhWiaPX&vxp=mtr



Next cheapest decent 455 cam is a Melling SPC-8, which is an 041 RA4 clone. They usually sell for about $100 on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Camshaft-Stock-MELLING-SPC-8-fits-68-70-Pontiac-Firebird-6-6L-V8/131527250214?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3Dc409856de02f4b93862af3902e3adff1%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D28%26sd%3D261670106436


The Summit lifters are among the cheapest. But I prefer the Rhoads, with the Super Lube feature. Next on my list would be either the Crowers with the Cam Saver feature, or the Hylift Johnson 951R.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rhl-9518l/overview/make/pontiac

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crower/258/66056X3-16/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710576158&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-194671897271:pla-177199366631&catargetid=230006180003463839&cadevice=c&gclid=Cj0KEQiAsf_BBRDMpoOHw4aSq4QBEiQAPm7DL4XiBFqUCgivMZDhlTpjAn4CsE3kZaya2tEV4sq9gF0aAl7_8P8HAQ

http://hylift-johnson.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/HyLift-Johnson-Lifter-Catalog_2014.pdf


The cheapest forged rods are the RPM 5140 I-beams @ $300.

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae5140stockrod-2.html


The RPM H-beams are lighter, stronger, and can have floating pins. They are $400.

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae4340steelhbeam-2.html



I prefer to shim the spring in a Melling M54DS oil pump, to increase the oil pressure about 10 lbs, when using a 3.25" main block. Or, you can buy a pump with an 80lb spring. But, some engine builders prefer to use less clearance & stick with 60lb pressure. I'd also go with a new Melling oil pump driveshaft.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melling-OE-Type-Replacement-Oil-Pump-M54D-S-/151435284984?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

https://www.amazon.com/Melling-M54DS-Replacement-Oil-Pump/dp/B000C4PO6E

https://www.amazon.com/Melling-IS54A-Oil-Pump-Driveshaft/dp/B000C4LRR4/ref=pd_sim_263_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000C4LRR4&pd_rd_r=26RKRFP478681GXR2QJT&pd_rd_w=t9Pwt&pd_rd_wg=pFqX4&psc=1&refRID=26RKRFP478681GXR2QJT

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MEL0/IS54A/02339.oap?year=1958&make=Pontiac&model=Chieftain&vi=1351000&ck=Search_02339_1351000_-1&pt=02339&ppt=C0145

THANKS AGAIN!  8-) Gonna start my checklist :-D



So be it. But 6x-8 heads are a much better pump gas choice. They can be used with flat top pistons & premium pump gas. But, it's your build.

Yea heha my setup wont be too pump gas friendly, but itll be well past stock torque output.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 04:09:18 PM by 455WS6 »
True Pontiac - No replacement for displacement,
everything else is just a cheby.

oldskool

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2016, 05:00:46 PM »
"...Lead additive wont raise octane? I was always told it did..."


REAL lead additive will lubricate the valve seats & raise compression SLIGHTLY.

Lead SUBSTITUTE is said to not be nearly as effective as the real thing.

One of the few sources of real lead additive is called Octane Supreme. But it ain't cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kemco-62150-Octane-Supreme-Lead-Supreme-Octane-Booster-32-oz-/361313624139?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kemco-62150-Octane-Supreme-Lead-Supreme-Octane-Booster-32-oz-6-Cans-/400932700361

Again, I would say that if you have hardened seats, you don't need lead. You can Google up lots of info on lead subs & octane boosters. The Torco Accelerator is the cheapest stuff I've read about that really works.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 05:03:44 PM by oldskool »

Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2016, 05:00:46 PM »

TheCougarine

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2016, 10:59:25 PM »
From what I understand most lead substitutes are supposed to replace the lubricating properties of lead rather than boost octane. I didn't actually see anywhere the one originally posted even claimed to raise the octane. Is there any reason other than the fact you already have the heads that you are dead set on using them. Is there a power goal in mind?

DeweyOx

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2016, 11:40:55 AM »
I'm running approx. 1 gal to 10 gal ratio of 111 octane racing gas with my 455 (bored to 468) Butler Engine. It dyno'd just short of 600HP. We can only get 91 octane here in CA, so I'm just trying to boost Octane to 93. On the rare chance I don't add the racing fuel right away, The car seems to run just as good on 91. No knocks and no pings. Just plain VROOMMMMM FAST & LOUD! I have used that race gas concentrate boost and it seems to work pretty well too, though more expensive than buying the 5 gal can of the F&L SP-1 111 octane. (It's about 60.00 for 5 gal.)

Unfortunately for me, this wasn't built for pennies though :? Took me 9 months to have it dialed in, but lately it's been pretty solid and a rocket ship to drive. Good luck!!!

455 WS6

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2017, 07:38:54 PM »
"...Lead additive wont raise octane? I was always told it did..."


REAL lead additive will lubricate the valve seats & raise compression SLIGHTLY.

Lead SUBSTITUTE is said to not be nearly as effective as the real thing.

One of the few sources of real lead additive is called Octane Supreme. But it ain't cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kemco-62150-Octane-Supreme-Lead-Supreme-Octane-Booster-32-oz-/361313624139?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kemco-62150-Octane-Supreme-Lead-Supreme-Octane-Booster-32-oz-6-Cans-/400932700361

Again, I would say that if you have hardened seats, you don't need lead. You can Google up lots of info on lead subs & octane boosters. The Torco Accelerator is the cheapest stuff I've read about that really works.

True. I was previously misinformed. Ive looked at reviews on the Torco Accelerator and seems legit. Ill be investing in plenty of that.


From what I understand most lead substitutes are supposed to replace the lubricating properties of lead rather than boost octane. I didn't actually see anywhere the one originally posted even claimed to raise the octane. Is there any reason other than the fact you already have the heads that you are dead set on using them. Is there a power goal in mind?

Yes. 650 lb ft of axle snapping torque from small chambered head swap. I got the idea from a few members of Pontiac zone forum who did this back in the 80s before there was an aftermarket.


I'm running approx. 1 gal to 10 gal ratio of 111 octane racing gas with my 455 (bored to 468) Butler Engine. It dyno'd just short of 600HP. We can only get 91 octane here in CA, so I'm just trying to boost Octane to 93.
Same boat here in AZ. Some stations in NV (where im heading back to) they got 93 premium.  What compression are you running at?

True Pontiac - No replacement for displacement,
everything else is just a cheby.

Doright

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 10:16:02 AM »
I am in Nevada and can Get 100 octane race gas at the Pump

I have had good luck with mixing 100LL AV Gas mixed 75/25 or 70/30 with Pump Supreme.
But I am an A&P mechanic and have little trouble getting 100LL on any little airport.

With E85 as prevalent as it is today, today's Hot rod engine builders should take a very serious look at this fuel and its availability in there area at 85 % ethanol and 15% regular unleaded which is just Methanol & Toluene and about 100 other chemicals.

Yes it's true you will burn 1.5 % more of it as compared to real gas but that's because it runs cooler than regular gas so you have to fatten the mixture to get the same amount of work from it as you do Gas so you burn 1.5 time more of it to get the same power out it as gas. this adds to the cooling effect richer mixtures run cooler.
The benefits of running cooler is a Plus in many applications.

Unless Your racing and then Heat is your friend Heat is energy, for real racing I would rather have real race gas and a Hot Thermostat
And a great cooling system.
 
Dennis Barnett 
A&P Mechanic & FCC
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oldskool

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Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 12:57:08 PM »
"...With E85 as prevalent as it is today, today's Hot rod engine builders should take a very serious look at this fuel and its availability in there area..."



Some use E-85 with good success, and recommend it.

Others do nothing but badmouth it and point out all it's negative effects. The parts & info are available, online, for anyone interested enuff to Google it.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1CAACAO_enUS682US682&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=using+E-85+in+high+performance+cars.&*


Re: hi comp 455 street/strip
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 12:57:08 PM »
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