Author Topic: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)  (Read 31882 times)

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2016, 01:11:46 PM »
I'll ask a lot of questions but its always the ones I don't ask that come around to bite me in the arse. :?:

Do you use a weld thru type primer for the plug weld areas?

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2016, 01:53:15 PM »
Ask away, questions are how we learn and you're the only one left that will talk to me! :sad: :lol:

I use weldable primer in any location that I can't prep after welding. Otherwise, I don't use it because it's usually too expensive to use as a regular primer. Some of the weldable primers are very expensive and still splatter and burn away. I'm using Summit brand SP1105. It's a self etching primer that's weldable, splatter and burn away is minimal. I'm very happy with it especially because it's only $8 US a can.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2016, 07:13:50 PM »
I'm thinking the easier way would be to prime along the flanges that will be hidden after weld, then clamp the panel(s) and remove the primer that is exposed through the plug weld holes prior to welding.  Only thing is I'm not sure what to use that is small enough to get into those plug holes yet efficient enough to do a lot of them in a timely manner.

Other than the areas to be welded does the black coating on the entire panel need to be removed or can I prime over it and finish coat paint?

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2016, 02:58:09 AM »
I've done what you're talking about. There is a small 1/4" wire cup brush that attaches to a drill or die grinder. It definitely works, but you should remove more primer/paint than just the plug area to avoid contaminating the weld. I usually go through the trouble of finding all my plug welds to strip back primer/paint about 3/4"-1". Sometimes we need to be flexible about blind welds.

As far as paint, you need to test the panel. Use a solvent like acetone. Soak a rag with the solvent and lay it on the panel for a few seconds. Try scrubbing it with the rag, if any comes off you may want to remove the primer as it's probably just a shipping primer. Usually, the description of the product will say e-coated, epoxy/weldable primed, or bare.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2016, 06:57:05 PM »
OK, so I was watching a few videos on mig welding plug holes and came across a few videos where they mig welded without plug holes and the penetration was right through both panels.
Which has less margin of error?

Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2016, 06:57:05 PM »

FormTA

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2016, 08:24:41 PM »
I have a panel hole punch tool and have always plug welded through holes.
79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2016, 01:36:50 PM »
The problem with welding in the manner you speak of is the massive amount of heat you need to pump into the panel. For example, when butt welding 20 gauge I set my welder to 1 for heat and 5 for wire speed. Plug welding 20, I use 1 for heat and 8 for speed. To make that weld, I would need to take my welder up to 3 or 4 and max out the speed. It's doable but takes practice, even then there's still a big risk of warping a panel or getting burn through. The panel goes in and comes out fairly easy so marking, punching and cleaning the holes isn't a big deal and should go fairly quick.

At FormTA, do you have the combo holepunch and flanger? How deep does yours set the hole from the edge of the panel? I bought the Harbor Freight cheapy and it has a 3/16" punch but it can only go in a little under a 1/2". This only leaves about an 1/16" of metal at the edge of the panel and I usually end up burning it away. I'd like to get one with a deeper throat, maybe like 5/8".

FormTA

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2016, 08:41:33 PM »
Yes it is a combo tool. I'll have to see what the setback is. I've had it for 20+ years. Sun something was the name but it has wore off... I guess it may take some practice but I rarely burn through the outer part. I start fighting the middle then swirl to the outer and finnish on the opposite side.
79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

79merlin

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2016, 08:46:13 PM »
On my floor pan I used a drill rather than a punch (maybe because I don't have a punch haha). The nice thing about using the drill is you can set the holes back further, but the real benefit for me was I used a smaller hole. and put them more often than the original spot welds. Smaller hole is easier to fill, and less likely to burn through. My thought is that more spots should make up for the smaller holes, but others might think differently.

scarebird

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2016, 01:15:15 AM »
OK, so I was watching a few videos on mig welding plug holes and came across a few videos where they mig welded without plug holes and the penetration was right through both panels.
Which has less margin of error?

It is easier to weld with the holes, but if you are skilled (welder, metalworker, etc) you can do without the holes.

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2016, 02:00:41 AM »
What's great about a punch is that you can easily shoot of 5 or 6 holes in the time it takes to drill one, on outer edges only.

FormTA

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2016, 05:30:40 AM »
Ya, I really like mine. Not a tool that gets a ton of use but good to have if your doing a restoration that will need a bunch of sheet metal replaced.
79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2016, 01:45:44 PM »
You know where the punch really shines? I replaced my entire floor, in sections. There's approximately 6' of flange and lap joints per side that the punch bangs holes through in a matter of minutes.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2016, 05:09:08 PM »
Thanks for the feedback in your thread, link here:

http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=73156.0

I'm out with the flue so no work got done this weekend, good thing is it bought me another week to make my decision.

Were there spot welds right in the the 1/4 panel gutter corners as well as that flat area at the same 2 corners?

I'm not sure of the area you refer to as "the tail-light extensions will need to be bent out of the way".


Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2016, 06:08:39 PM »
Hmm, IIRC there will only be one spot weld on each side attached directly to the outer tail panel. The gutter is also welded to the taillight extension and the rear quarter. The taillight extension is the piece that connects the upper sides of the outer panel with the very end of the upper rear quarter. It's the piece that holds the outer/top bolt of your tailight.


I was looking through your pics. That's a nice Formula, I kinda prefer the clean look of 'em to the gaudiness of the TA. LOL

Do ladies usually hug polar bears in Canada or is that a dire wolf!?  :lol: What kind of dog is that? It's huge.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 06:19:28 PM by Ford5of5 »

Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2016, 06:08:39 PM »



formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2016, 07:22:53 PM »
So there are 3 layers of panels that come together at the gutter corners?

It's an Alaskan Malamute, was the neighbours dog that was left alone outside all day and night. The wife use to spend time with her walking, grooming, etc... The neighbour never understood why the dog would not listen to them and at the same time didn't get the concept of bonding. They moved a couple yrs back and which created a void for wifie so she filled it with these guys:

« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:47:22 AM by formula jg »

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2016, 02:19:54 PM »
The debate to replace entire panel or section it rages on. However I read this and think I can live with the thought of sectioning this new panel (that I paid a lot of Canadian $$$$$ for) as they did here:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0507-panel-rust-removal-2/

Click on "View all 25 photos"

If I proceed with this method I'm open for suggestions such as how much to overlap new and old panels? Where to start the plunge cuts? etc..

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2016, 03:19:52 PM »
I've seen that done in how to videos and tv shows a lot. Never done it to a car, though. I have done it for drywall repairs and something similar when laying out peel n stick vinyl tiles.

I'm pretty sure you could use this method with a tail panel. Just cut off the unwanted portion of the new panel (most of the top) and then cut off any of the bottom from the origional panel that would prevent your patch from sitting flat. Don't try to cut away ALL the bottom of the old panel, mostly the area where the outer panel meets the inner panel. Use a few clamps to hold the piece along the bottom, figure out where you plan to cut and then use sheet metal screws to hold the 2 pieces together, unless you got clecos. Put the screws through your cut line like they did with the clecos. The idea is, your cutting wheel's thickness is the same as the diameter of your wire, I think .025.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 03:48:54 PM by Ford5of5 »

FormTA

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2016, 04:06:37 PM »
That is exactly how I do all of my patch and major panel replacements. I do floor pans the same way too. You get really good at heat control while tack welding...
79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2016, 04:12:27 PM »
I would try for something like the pics in reply #37. That gets you above the trunk line and from the pics past the rust and into flat, easy to weld profiles. Wherever you make the cut just keep in mind that you need to be able to get some paint on the weld. In the video they used lead. That was neat. Many people use water proof stranded filler or just seam sealer. I'll be using seam sealer over all my butt welds. They did pass the flashlight test, but just in case they're gonna get sealed. It's the best to preeserve the important holes. Plus, you gain access to the inner panel for some paint or any repairs

Growing up, my Dad always had Doberman Pinschers. When he hit his 60's he got into Miniature Pinschers. I would always ask when does the rest of the dog get here. It's weird when you're use to large dogs and then switch to little ones. LOL

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2016, 07:46:48 PM »
1st.   Are the sheet metal screws right on the cut line or just above it so they're holes will need to be filled?

2nd.  If I only cut the area below a line where the outer meets inner panel isn't the trunk up-turn going to prevent me from painting the backside of the new section along that cut line (for corrosion protection)?

3rd.  How would I make the cut noted above without cutting the trunk up-turn panel?

4th.  How do you remove the original panel section thats between the butt weld cut line and the line that was used to cut off the bottom old panel that your suggesting?

The car is kept at the cottage so I hope to visually get my head around this on the weekend but would it make sense to have the butt weld cut line follow along say 1/4" above the top of trunk up-turn until you come to the lock cage area where the cut would be somewhere below the bottom of cage but above the top of inner panel?  I'm thinking this would leave me access to the back side of the butt weld for prime, paint and seam sealer, could be missing something here though.



Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2016, 09:38:49 PM »
This is kinda an important quote from that link:  "No two cars were assembled exactly the same. In fact, the same car is not the same from one side to the other. Everything wasn’t intended to be perfect, it just had to be within an acceptable tolerance. Now if you add thirty or so years of usage and maybe even a bump or two, you can see why no car is going to be perfectly “square.”  Learn it, live it, love it or else you'll be tearing out your hair LOL!

1. In the link, their holes were above, below and in the cut line. As long as the hole isn't full of jagged metal it will weld up just fine.

2. You may need to apply paint with either a spray wand extension (long hose) or an artists brush taped to a stick. A shortened brush taped to  a pipe cleaner will get you the articulation you need.

3. Once you get the hang of using a cutting wheel it's easy to adjust the depth of your plunge cut. Don't worry if you cut though the trunk pan, just weld it back up.

4. Parts of it should end up in the trunk and some between the inner and out panel. You may need to make some preliminary cuts to make things a little easier.

On the last thing, I would try to avoid the lock cage area all together. Just cut across the filler tube opening. See why SOMETIMES it's easier to change out the whole panel? :lol: This only looks difficult.

Think on this while you are sick, but don't do it until you are well. Last spring I got pneumonia, the Docs blamed my younger sister who had strep throat. I think all the welding fumes and grinding I was doing at the time mixed with me having the flu and the little one giving me strep caused my pneumonia. Better safe than sorry!

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2016, 01:36:23 PM »
Yes I am starting to see why it may be less work (and skill) required to change out the entire panel. I'm taking your advise and gonna wait till I feel better to get back at it.

Which sheet metal screws do I use to temporarily secure the panel, self-tapping or regular and what size?

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2016, 02:27:27 PM »
Yes I am starting to see why it may be less work (and skill) required to change out the entire panel.
  HEY!  :mad: :x: :lol: :lol: :lol:


A # 8 sheetmetal screw should do you fine, less than 3/4" long. I'd predrill the holes and don't gorilla-crank them into place, just snug. The cool part about the clecos they use in that link is that they don't distort the metal. I'll buy a set one of these days. Screws will distort the metal of the hole just a small bit but it comes right back into shape with a light hammer tap. The distortion is slight and caused by the inclined plane of the screw. You could just weld em up and grind the distortion away but be careful, you run the risk of thinning the metal. The important part is that you are careful about welding any jagged metal, this is different from the distortion. Don't get freaked by anything I'm saying, these are just heads up kinda tips. There's a bunch of physical properties of steel and heat that should go here in the discussion but I'm three beers into my 10 car driveway with only one shovel. :oops:

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2016, 05:46:28 PM »
Hope everyone had a good, safe Christmas. I started back on the tail panel removal today but finding some of the factory spot welds below the filler neck opening is taking up a lot of time because they were sanded down so smooth they're hard to see or feel, I'll get those suckers.
I want to order the gas filler door seal, its the strip that is approx. 6" long and slides onto a tab that is formed along the trunk gutter. I'm having trouble finding it online maybe I'm not using the correct name, does anyone know what its called?

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2016, 04:39:10 AM »
The factory used a spot welder. They leave much less evidence than our migs.

I'm pretty sure the 6" long strip is called "that thing by the gas cap". I think it's there for gas pump handles to rest on, but not sure. I feel like it's either called a bumper or filler. I'd try some of the people on this site for such a part like Pete at Fbodywarhouse or Kentucky Yeti. Post over in the looking for parts section. If you wanna go McGyver on it, use some 5/8" fuel line, but no duct tape!

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2016, 04:42:38 AM »
Just did a quick search for that thing by the gas cap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9OI1uRR4ZY

Aus78Formula

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2016, 04:53:45 AM »
The white compress, the black don't. And they don't supply enough for what's needed. These were used on the rear bumper as well. Cut any extras needed.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2016, 10:18:45 AM »
I decided to remove the entire tail panel but am at a stand still cause I can't find these bloody factory spot welds. This is where the lack of experience rears its ugly head.

Here are the 2 areas giving me grief:







I know all these cars built back then were welded slightly different so I'm not expecting someone to pin-point each one just some tips to finding them without making a mess of things here.

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2016, 05:06:59 PM »
Were you using a grinder or a flap wheel? In my experience, the flap wheel will not tell you were the weld is. They remove too much material too fast. A grinder should turn them blueish. I try to use bright light and my fingers to find spot welds, works most of the time.

You might have ground off the hints of the spotwelds. IMO, the low spots in your pics are where you will find the welds. Try using a small screwdriver to pry up the quarter, just slightly.

here's mine, there were 3 spot weld in the same area on mine. Approx. 1/2" away from the hole in your pic at about 7 o'clock.




Keep this in mind, if you're not getting aggravated by chasing down spot welds then you're not doing it right! :lol: :lol: :lol: Worst case scenario, cut out large sections of the origional panel close to where the welds are suppose to be and then start peeling back the steel left on the car till you find a weld.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 05:17:20 PM by Ford5of5 »

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2016, 08:13:54 PM »
The area was cleaned up using a die grinder with disc, I think 60 grit. I had started prying the 1/4 panel from the tail panel by bending the tail panel down so as not to disform the 1/4 and gutter but I stopped and walked away because I allowed it to intimidate me. Gonna take another stab at it after New Years.

How about the area below the gas filler opening?

I'm dead set on trying to remove the entire outer panel as one piece and don't want to start cutting it up and I understand it's more work to do it this way but who knows maybe it'll become wall art some day.

mz-formula

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2016, 09:40:25 PM »
Looking good, keep at it!

Something I came across for fixing holes you don't want because they were drilled in the wrong place, blow thru.. whatever...  Get yourself a copper bar, does not need to be huge.  put it behind the hole you need to fill, and just weld over it.  the weld will not stick to the copper, and it acts as a backer to hold the material in place.

79merlin

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2016, 08:11:03 AM »
ditto with what MZ Formula said. I actually bought a piece of 3/4 copper pipe and pounded it flat on the concrete. Then I cut it into 2-4 inch pieces. They work fantastic. If you have a strong magnet it will hold the the copper backer in place so you don't need to have 3 hands to work it.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2016, 09:19:20 AM »
Thanks guys, I will need to close a few holes that were over-drilled on some spot welds so gonna definitely use this copper tip.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2017, 06:38:47 PM »
I went to war with the gutter coners today and almost lost the battle, man the triple panel layers in this area were mind boggling. The panel is in one piece and literally dangling from the lock cage, is there a technique to remove the panel with the cage still on?

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2017, 06:53:41 PM »
Hit the first milestone for this project:





Next is the inner panel and I had a close look at the area where it comes across the lower frame rail flange. The flange is solid but the panel seems like it melted (rusted) itself onto the flange not sure how to get it off and clean up the flange ends.




Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2017, 08:13:03 PM »
OMG, what did you!  :lol: :lol:

Yup, you're gonna need an inner panel. I think there are a few more spot welds that went threw both panels and into the frame rails

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2017, 05:12:01 AM »
I have a new inner panel ready to go. Did you ever find out what the red sealer is?

Ford5of5

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2017, 08:53:28 AM »
Yes, it's just seam sealer. I don't know if it's special or high heat. The write-ups I found about it mentioned that spot-welders use very high heat for a fraction of a second. The burn time is so short that the sealer doesn't catch fire. I welded mine in place and sealed the inside. I was going to sealer the outside too but didn't because I was worried that water might get trapped in there.

formula jg

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Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2017, 09:17:13 AM »
Since we are on the topic of seam sealer can you recommend one because there are quite a few different types.

Re: Project Rear Tail Panel replacement has officially started (Pics Included)
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2017, 09:17:13 AM »
You can help support TAC!