Author Topic: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution  (Read 5710 times)

hakitup

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455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« on: October 31, 2016, 09:07:27 AM »
I think I have figured out my rebuild plan which may change once the engine is out and disassembled.

Butler 4.250 stroker, H beam rods, .040 flat top pistons, zero deck, Comp Cams HE 51-413-11 roller, mill stock heads, port match intake and Ram Air exhaust, 60 PSI oil pump, change valve springs, roller tip rockers. Some parts I already have that will be reused billet dist, flowkool water pump, stock 72 intake and ram air exhaust. My budget is around $5000, and I want to make it upgradable to E-heads/bigger cam when I have disposable cash.

Goal is 9.0 comp and good street motor

Tom H
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 05:51:33 PM by hakitup »
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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2016, 07:27:17 AM »
That sounds like a decent plan. But most would consider that cam a little small for a 455. If you wanna make power above 5000rpm, you might wanna consider a slightly larger cam. But, if a smooth idle, lots of vac and low rpm torque is your goal, that cam should do it. Power will probably fall off quickly, above 5000.

I like the looks of this Voodoo cam, better than the CC you listed.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3209&gid=289

Next step up might be the KRE  HR224.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Cams%20and%20Parts.htm

If using a roller cam, I don't know if you can do the whole build for under $5k or not. ???
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:47:55 AM by oldskool »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2016, 10:01:46 AM »
That sounds like a decent plan. But most would consider that cam a little small for a 455. If you wanna make power above 5000rpm, you might wanna consider a slightly larger cam. But, if a smooth idle, lots of vac and low rpm torque is your goal, that cam should do it. Power will probably fall off quickly, above 5000.

I like the looks of this Voodoo cam, better than the CC you listed.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3209&gid=289

Next step up might be the KRE  HR224.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Cams%20and%20Parts.htm

If using a roller cam, I don't know if you can do the whole build for under $5k or not. ???

Thanks for the input you always have a ton of good information. I'm doing the assembly and port work myself and I'm seeing $3000 for rotating assembly/cam/lifters that leaves $2000 for machine work, gaskets, rockers, timing set, oil pump which seem doable. The cam does feel small but I was looking at how I drive it and I'm not sure I've ever reved it above 5000. Most is cruising around 2000-3500 maybe 4500 with a spirited acceleration but I get out of it quickly as I see no point to drive fast. If I get the need for speed I just ride one of the bikes :D

Tom H
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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 10:07:49 PM »
Visited the machinist yesterday and they answered all my questions. Started working the block, I kind of like my block clean so I took off all the flashing. As soon as I have the pistons I'm dropping the block off.





Tom H
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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 05:50:34 PM »
Starting to mass parts and my heads are 109cc chambers next step is to drop off at the machine shop. I also drilled and taped the main caps today for OEM 3/4 windage tray.

Tom H













« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 07:25:06 PM by hakitup »
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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 05:50:34 PM »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2017, 09:22:45 PM »
Did some more work on cleaning up the flashing on the heads. The more I play with this engine the more I love what the engineers accomplished.



Tom H
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Formulabruce

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 01:15:47 AM »
 Remember the #2 Piston is at the very front of the Block ! Obviously disregard if you know, just hate to see anyone have a issue !
 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 01:21:43 AM by Formulabruce »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 08:48:38 PM »
Good info, luckily the rods are full floating so assembly will be a snap. I got my OEM windage tray wow very impressed with the quality.

Tom H

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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »
Dropped the block off at the machine shop along with the new crank, rod, pistons, flex plate and harmonic balancer. Can't wait to get started putting her back together!!

Tom H
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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 02:16:15 PM »
Ordered up the cam, lifters and timing set today.......was very hard to push the button :D I went with oldskool's Lunati recommendation.

Tom H
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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 08:26:44 PM »
Placed my order with BOP Engineering, should have enough parts to get the short block done once back from the machine shop.

Tom H
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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2017, 06:42:37 PM »
More parts showing up, just need my block and I'm ready to get started.



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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2017, 08:36:16 PM »
Remember the #2 Piston is at the very front of the Block ! Obviously disregard if you know, just hate to see anyone have a issue !
 

You know this rod orientation is opposite of what is in "How to rebuild Pontiac V-8s by Rocky Rotella".

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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2017, 10:50:04 AM »
"...The chamfered side corresponds with the rod journal fillet on the crankshaft..."

As Rocky said, the chamfered(beveled) side goes toward the side of the journal, where the fillet is. There is no need for a chamfer at the center of the journal, between the 2 rods.

About 1/4 way down the page, this article shows some close-up pics and a very good description of this. The fillet is referred to as a "radius", or "strength union" between the rod journal & counterweight.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0206hpp-racing-reliably-part-i/
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 10:57:42 AM by oldskool »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2017, 10:18:49 PM »
"...The chamfered side corresponds with the rod journal fillet on the crankshaft..."

As Rocky said, the chamfered(beveled) side goes toward the side of the journal, where the fillet is. There is no need for a chamfer at the center of the journal, between the 2 rods.

About 1/4 way down the page, this article shows some close-up pics and a very good description of this. The fillet is referred to as a "radius", or "strength union" between the rod journal & counterweight.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0206hpp-racing-reliably-part-i/

I've built only fords and after seeing what was posted I thought it must be a Pontiac thing. Then I found that it conflicted with Rotella's book.

Today I worked over the manifold, gasket matching and cutting off the water crossover. Very happy with the results, It amazes me that Pontiac made factory parts ready for mods. What I mean is that the intake runners are larger than the mating flange similar to what Edelbrock does with theirs.



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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2017, 10:18:49 PM »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2017, 07:29:14 PM »
Looks like the exhaust ports are going to make a good bit of difference.



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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2017, 08:40:50 PM »
Block is home and I mocked up a piston to check deck height as the machine shop wanted $200 to check it. Well I measured .004 and have decided it's not worth it to have it machined to zero. I have decide to take .030 off the heads which should get me to 103cc chambers. That puts me at 9.51 static using summits compression calculator. By the numbers: 4.21 bore and stroke, .004 deck, 0cc pistons, 103cc heads, and .039 head gask.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 08:43:19 PM by hakitup »
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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2017, 09:08:24 AM »
"...0cc pistons..."

Just curious, does that mean the pistons have a small dome, which offsets the volume of the valve reliefs, resulting in "0" total volume ???

The pic does appear, to me, to show a dome.

"...I measured .004 and have decided it's not worth it to have it machined to zero..."

.004 deck is close enuff. That gives you .043 quench distance. That's good.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 09:13:10 AM by oldskool »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2017, 07:29:22 PM »
"...0cc pistons..."

Just curious, does that mean the pistons have a small dome, which offsets the volume of the valve reliefs, resulting in "0" total volume ???

The pic does appear, to me, to show a dome

According to summit and kieth black the valve reliefs and dome equal 0cc. https://www.uempistons.com/catalogs/automotive_catalog.pdf
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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2017, 10:07:47 PM »
OK, that's the "hypercast" pistons. Make sure you have plenty of ring gap. I recently read again about those pistons coming apart, because the ring gap was too small. For some reason, especially the top rings need more gap than with most other pistons.

What I recently read was from a well respected engine builder who posts on PY. He also now has a Pontiac Facebook page you can join. You can ask him about the correct clearance and ring gap for those pistons. He goes by GTOfreek.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/365435830492976/



 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 10:53:26 PM by oldskool »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2017, 11:22:41 PM »
I was planning on using their ring gap chart which comes to .027 top ring and .017 on the second ring.

Tom H
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72blackbird

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 03:26:26 PM »
The only issue I see with those domed pistons is when you swap out the iron heads for aluminum ones- the 85-87cc aluminum heads on the market now will give you a 10.85-11:1 SCR, better run 93 octane.

Geno
1977 SE T/A (sold :( )
1974 455 T/A (sold :( )
1972 Esprit restomod
1976 T/A restomod
1975 Formula 400 4-speed donor car
1978 Martinique blue W72 4-speed T/A, hurst tops

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2017, 09:33:14 PM »
Starting to look like engine again.





Heads are off getting worked over .030 removed and ditching the umbrella seals.

Geno, I figured if this combo works well I will probably never make any changes. So I decided to go the easiest way to get to 9.5:1
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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2017, 08:48:30 AM »
I guess I never really updated what I'm doing. I decided not to go with the butler stroker kit, I went with a Eagle OEM replacement crank, Eagle H beam rods, Keith Black Hypertetic .060 dome pistons, Lunati hydraulic roller cam 271/279 dur .515/.530 lift 112 lobe sep, lunati roller lifters, crane roller tip rockers, Summit steel billet timing set, 4X 8 heads milled .030 103cc chamber gasket match intake and exhaust stock valves teflon seals, lunati valve spring set, ram air manifolds, 72 OEM intake, flowkool water pump, Mellin 60 psi oil pump with .060 bypass spring shim, drilled oil galley plug, OEM windage tray, ARP head bolts, ARP main stud kit and last but not least I'm sending my carb to Cliffs performance.

According to my desktop dyno it should be 350hp and 498tq making most of the to between 2200-4500. I know it just a simulation.

Tom H
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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2017, 09:53:59 AM »
"...stock valves ..."

Besides the hypercast pistons, I don't like the idea of using stock valves. Especially with higher than stock valve spring pressures, most recommend one piece stainless valves.


"...it should be 350hp and 498tq..."

A decent 455 should have closer to 400hp than 350hp. So, in this case, I'd say the desktop dyno is way off, on hp. But hey, I could be wrong. 


hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2017, 01:54:46 PM »
Heads are off being worked now they are suppose to contact me soon, the valves may be changed already. I was talking about stock size, I'll get them changed if it's that unsafe.

Tom H
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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2017, 02:39:42 PM »
"...I was talking about stock size, I'll get them changed if it's that unsafe..."


Most say that the 2 piece valves can come apart and cause severe engine damage.

Ferrea sells the short 2.11 intake valves, but not the short 1.66 exhaust valves. Butler sells the short Ferrea 1.77 valves, which they have cut down to 1.66, and nearly doubled the price.

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453168-ferrea-high-performance-stainless-steel-intake-valve-setfer-f5065-8.html?ref=category:1336676

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferrea-F5065-8-Qty-of-8-Valves-PO-I-2110-11-32-4-/172324696605?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453162-ferrea-high-performance-stainless-steel-exhaust-valve-setfer-f5062m166-8.html?ref=category:1336676

SI sells the short 1.66 valves, cheaper than the modified Butler/Ferrea valves. The part # is 6001SG. They also sell the short 2.11 intakes. The part # is 6006SG.

https://rpmmachine.com/si-valves-pontiac-competition.shtml

I think you can order direct from SI. But, you must call for prices.

http://sivalves.com/flipbook/2016-SI-Catalog.html#p=43

http://sivalves.com/contact.html
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 03:09:03 PM by oldskool »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2017, 04:16:07 PM »
Good information thanks, now is the time to change them, I was wondering just how much it would cost to switch to 1.77 I'll have to call the shop Monday and check on some stuff
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oldskool

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2017, 09:02:05 PM »
"... I was wondering just how much it would cost to switch to 1.77..."

Keep in mind that some engine builders say if you cut the stock 1.66 seats for the bigger 1.77 valves, it cuts down below the factory hardened metal. Hardened seats are said to be needed for use with unleaded gas. But, some say there is no need for hardened seats.

The 1.77 valves will provide VERY little performance improvement, for mild street driven engines. Many high performance and race engine builders recommend the bigger valves. I'd stay with 1.66 valves. But, if you decide to go with the bigger valves, Ferrea makes 'em. So does SI.

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453160-ferrea-high-performance-stainless-steel-exhaust-valve-setfer-f5062-8.html?ref=category:1336676

The SI # is 6007SG. The matching 2.11 intakes are #6006SG.

http://sivalves.com/flipbook/2016-SI-Catalog.html#p=43

« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 09:13:19 PM by oldskool »

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2017, 10:16:25 AM »
Looking like an engine again, everything went together great. Needs one more coat of paint and some new engine mount bolts and It's ready to go back in.

Tom H


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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2017, 09:12:32 AM »
Engine is back in the car, only issue I had is my hoist is to short for the long nose on this car. So I had to come in from the side witched worked pretty good in fact probably the easiest install I have ever done. If I didn't want to have my carb done I would be starting this weekend!!

Tom H
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1975 ta

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2017, 09:01:35 PM »
looks great!

Tyler

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2017, 09:31:49 PM »
I am drooling.
Speed limits are for everyone else!

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2017, 09:43:19 PM »
Thanks, here is the latest update................START UP SUCCESS!!!! First crank nothing, then I swapped the power and tach wire (single connectors and I couldn't remember where they were) second crank, boom fired up ran a little rough the smoothed out with no strange noises. Oil pres was off the guage then I remember that I was suppose to connect that wire when it was on stands. Shut off then connect it and the tach wire fired right back up 60 psi for oil. Shut it back down and now I need some oil to get the start up oil out. SUPER EXCITED!!!


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hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2017, 10:40:19 PM »
One with the shaker on

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72blackbird

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2017, 12:15:35 AM »
Tom,
She looks good- congrats on the 455 build.

Geno
1977 SE T/A (sold :( )
1974 455 T/A (sold :( )
1972 Esprit restomod
1976 T/A restomod
1975 Formula 400 4-speed donor car
1978 Martinique blue W72 4-speed T/A, hurst tops

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2017, 03:05:40 PM »
Thanks Geno,

 I do have a strange sound I'm trying to track down. Sounds like a lifter but when I have the covers off and loosen the rockers to get a tapping sound then make it go away they all sound the same. Using my stethoscope it sounds like it is coming from the number 1 exhaust valve. kind of like it is closing hard (slap shut?), other than that it runs great. Once I get my Jeep project done I will investigate more AKA take the head and valley pan off.

Tom H
"I don't know what you call it, I only know the sound it makes when it lies!!"

72blackbird

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 10:38:03 PM »
Tom,
What kind of rockers are you running?

Geno
1977 SE T/A (sold :( )
1974 455 T/A (sold :( )
1972 Esprit restomod
1976 T/A restomod
1975 Formula 400 4-speed donor car
1978 Martinique blue W72 4-speed T/A, hurst tops

hakitup

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Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2018, 06:36:45 PM »
Sorry Geno I didn’t see this sooner, I’m running crane roller tip. I just swapped to Edelbrock heads and used .060 head gasket to keep it to a reasonable compression ratio (10.6) The noise is still there but not as loud. I did just read something about oils and lifter/rocker noise on Clifford performance web site so I changed to casterol non-synthetic.

Tom H
"I don't know what you call it, I only know the sound it makes when it lies!!"

Re: 455 Rebuild Plan/Execution
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2018, 06:36:45 PM »
You can help support TAC!