Author Topic: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry  (Read 21120 times)

Kevin

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Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« on: March 27, 2015, 12:35:19 PM »
Hey guys, I've got a question for those who are knowledgeable about the brackets, pulleys, spacers etc on the Pontiac 400 engine. Over the last four years, I've pieced together a Pontiac 400 for my 78 Formula.
 After returning from college, I came home to start my car and take it out for a drive (It sat for ten months post build). The car would not start, but after replacing two broken fuel hoses, charging the battery and adding new fuel, the car runs. After about the fourth time starting the car, the belt broke. Well, if you know anything about these cars, the singular 'belt' is itself problematic unless you have a March Serpentine system etc. Well apparently, the guy who installed my engine felt that one belt was sufficient to drive the water pump, alternator, fan and power steering pump.

Of course, this routing of the belt is completely incorrect, and frustrates me because I spent hours trying to piece together the difficult to obtain and overly complicated power steering pump and alternator 'bracketry' for this build. Well, I'm at a loss. The pulleys hardly line up and there seems to be no one online that has definitively answered the problem in a forum post.

The engine is a W72 Pontiac 400 from 1977, while the heads are a #62 casting which supposedly presents problems for mounting the alternator etc. I will attach photos that will hopefully aid in my search to right this situation and get the car from my relative's house to mine.. I have the factory 1978 service manual, but even that isn't helping me to piece all this together and make it work as it should..


Here are some photos that hopefully help out. Yes... That is rust on my new valve covers. The engine installer didn't paint the bare casting valve covers, so forgive me, but I will fix that at a later date. The more pressing issue is getting this to actually rotate the accessories.

I appreciate the help anyone can offer.


















I have also emailed Jim Lehart about the issue, so i will post a conclusion of his thoughts here as well, so hopefully it will help someone else, and keep them from wanting to sell off their project like I'm wanting to do at the moment haha. An LS1 would have been a lot easier... Kinda..


PS. If anyone has any idea why a brand new power steering pressure line would be leaking AT the gearbox, let me know. I'm not in the position to repair that, as all of my other equipment is at my house, but if you have any ideas, let me know.

Grand73Am

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 06:55:56 PM »
The p.s. hose leaking at the gear box could be a mismatched hose end or gearbox. Does your new pressure hose have a flared hose end or an o-ring hose end?

If it's the original box, it would have inverted flare fittings inside the holes. And if your new hose is a flared ended hose, it should seal up. The flared hose tightened to the inverted flare fitting inside the hole is what seals up the hose to the hole. Don't use any thread sealer tape on the threads. That just gets in the way of the flares sealing tight, and could cause a leak. 

But, if someone put a later year box, 1980 and newer on the car, then it has holes for a hose end with o-rings. No inverted flares inside those holes. So if you're using the original style flared hose in a hole for an o-ring, it would leak.

Look inside the box hole and see if it has an inverted flare fitting inside. If so, you should be using a flared end hose. If not, and the hole is basically empty, that's a hole for a hose with an o-ring end.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 07:09:00 PM by Grand73Am »
Steve F.

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 07:23:59 PM »
The p.s. hose leaking at the gear box could be a mismatched hose end or gearbox. Does your new pressure hose have a flared hose end or an o-ring hose end?

If it's the original box, it would have inverted flare fittings inside the holes. And if your new hose is a flared ended hose, it should seal up. The flared hose tightened to the inverted flare fitting inside the hole is what seals up the hose to the hole. Don't use any thread sealer tape on the threads. That just gets in the way of the flares sealing tight, and could cause a leak. 

But, if someone put a later year box, 1980 and newer on the car, then it has holes for a hose end with o-rings. No inverted flares inside those holes. So if you're using the original style flared hose in a hole for an o-ring, it would leak.

Look inside the box hole and see if it has an inverted flare fitting inside. If so, you should be using a flared end hose. If not, and the hole is basically empty, that's a hole for a hose with an o-ring end.

Thanks for your help. I'll dig deeper into that when I get the car back to my house. Do you happen to have a picture of a properly installed hose setup on a 2nd gen? I've seen some pictures of these hoses where the hose sort of loops around the gear box in a weird way, and mine does not do that.

Also, here's a screenshot of a page from my service manual that shows the basic layout of the pulley system.







From the looks of things, the power steering pump is farther towards the front of the car than the alternator is, but my car is no where close to that setup. I purchased all the brackets and pulleys separate from the engine, so I had to piece it all together and use what limited information I had from online sources to decide what matched what.
Frank's Pontiac Parts is somewhat helpful as well, but still isn't really doing it for me. I think I need some spacers, but I'm not sure if all bets are off because of the #62 cylinder heads.

Aus78Formula

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 07:26:21 PM »
I had this on file, not sure if helps at all:


Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 07:39:29 PM »
Thanks for the diagram Aus78Formula. It appears that I'm lacking number "6"


Found another one


« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 07:48:41 PM by Kevin »

Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 07:39:29 PM »

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 07:53:14 PM »
Looks like that bolt hole on the top of the driver's side cylinder head is the kicker. Does anyone have a scanned in picture of the 'fix' for this that was illustrated in the original "How To Build Max Performance Pontiac V8's" book by Jim hand? I used to have the book around here someplace, but I can't find it anywhere.

My bolt not going into that hole is preventing the whole operation from working properly. Also, that spacer is going to give me a hard time as well.. Does anyone have a GM part number for that spacer or have an idea as to where to get one?

Aus78Formula

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 08:10:06 PM »
I don't have a 400 so simply guessing, but one reference to a spacer that mounts off the timing cover/alternator as being "69mm long". That's 2-3/4" in imperial. The same spacer is listed as suiting several models over the years for same thing.
The diagram shows a 3/8" bolt pass through it.

80transam

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 02:11:29 AM »
I have a Pontiac 400. With AC. Will send you pics of the bracketry soon as I can get to the shop. Probably Tuesday. Unless someone else gets you taken care of first.

X2 on the mismatched PS hose being the likely culprit for your leak. I had the same problem. If that's it, there is more than one way to fix it. Let us know.

And yes. On a non AC car. From the block it goes alternator, PS pump.

On a AC car, goes AC, alternator, PS

The Lternator and PS pulleys also run the water pump pulley. The AC runs alone off the crank.




80transam

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 02:23:13 AM »
Also, can't tell for sure from your pics, but looks like your pulleys might off angle too. They have to not only be the same elevation from the block, but also have to be "square" with each other or you will eat belts. Bent or missing brackets or spacers can cause you alt or pump to be "crooked".
Don't know how else to describe it, sorry.

Don't lose hope though. It CAN be done. I was missing all sorts of things, and it was a freakin PIA to get it all squared away, but we finally got it all lined up. I used a few washers and spacers from the local hardware store. Twine in the pulleys and rulers to make sure it all mocked up square.

462-6spd

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 09:38:21 AM »
Hi Kevin, I have Jim Hands book, what are you looking for and maybe I can help you find it. I looked through the table of contents and didn't see any mention of power steering or accessory drive brackets.

And X 2 on the comment from 80transam about your PS pulley appearing to be not square to the other pulleys.

Also, in one of the diagrams you posted there is a shorter (than the 2.75 " one already mentioned) spacer shown that appears to mount lower, maybe that is missing causing the pulley and pump to be out of square?

Gary

firebirdparts

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 02:39:33 PM »
Is the basic problem that the 62 heads don't have the bolt hole in that location?  If so, you could mount 1968 accessory brackets, but they are going to be harder to find.  Don't know if there are any easy answers.

Both the alternator and the power steering pump pivot on the same bolt.
I want to be like Paul Kenny when I grow up
Joe Bays
1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 02:16:17 PM »
I have a Pontiac 400. With AC. Will send you pics of the bracketry soon as I can get to the shop. Probably Tuesday. Unless someone else gets you taken care of first.

X2 on the mismatched PS hose being the likely culprit for your leak. I had the same problem. If that's it, there is more than one way to fix it. Let us know.

And yes. On a non AC car. From the block it goes alternator, PS pump.

On a AC car, goes AC, alternator, PS

The Lternator and PS pulleys also run the water pump pulley. The AC runs alone off the crank.

I would greatly appreciate pictures. A friend of mine has a 79 Trans Am with a 400, but we haven't gotten a chance to meet up so I can take pictures. I plan to investigate the steering box further when I get the pulley situation sorted. If the flare ends on the box are damaged, I think I can buy new ones correct?


Hi Kevin, I have Jim Hands book, what are you looking for and maybe I can help you find it. I looked through the table of contents and didn't see any mention of power steering or accessory drive brackets.

And X 2 on the comment from 80transam about your PS pulley appearing to be not square to the other pulleys.

Also, in one of the diagrams you posted there is a shorter (than the 2.75 " one already mentioned) spacer shown that appears to mount lower, maybe that is missing causing the pulley and pump to be out of square?

Gary



I wish I knew specifically where it is. There's a small portion in one of the chapters that mentions fabricating a 'strap' of sorts to help support the alternator.

Also, can't tell for sure from your pics, but looks like your pulleys might off angle too. They have to not only be the same elevation from the block, but also have to be "square" with each other or you will eat belts. Bent or missing brackets or spacers can cause you alt or pump to be "crooked".
Don't know how else to describe it, sorry.

Don't lose hope though. It CAN be done. I was missing all sorts of things, and it was a freakin PIA to get it all squared away, but we finally got it all lined up. I used a few washers and spacers from the local hardware store. Twine in the pulleys and rulers to make sure it all mocked up square.


Yeah, my engine assembler is telling me the same thing.. To keep the faith, so to speak.

I appreciate everyones' help. I have emailed Frank at Frank's Pontiac Parts in hopes of securing the spacers I lack. I'll keep everyone posted and I look forward to getting some pictures of someone's correct accessory brackets etc.

Hopefully this thread will become the definitive bracket/pulley resource for 2nd Gen T/A's with 400 Pontiacs haha.

firebirdparts

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 02:38:13 PM »
That is the wrong power steering pump pulley.  Once you get the pump straightened out, you will need a pully that locates the belt farther forward.

Google pictures of trans am engine compartments and look at the brackets and how those belts are arranged in space.

I want to be like Paul Kenny when I grow up
Joe Bays
1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

80transam

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 06:02:02 PM »
"I plan to investigate the steering box further when I get the pulley situation sorted. If the flare ends on the box are damaged, I think I can buy new ones correct?"-- yes you can buy new hoses. and as long as your pump is the same year as your steering box, you won't have any problems there.

"I wish I knew specifically where it is. There's a small portion in one of the chapters that mentions fabricating a 'strap' of sorts to help support the alternator."-- do you mean the rear alternator bracket? some years (i don't know which) came with an extra bracket that mounted to the rear of the alternator.

i hope to get to the shop tomorrow for some more pics. that one from firebirdparts shows the long spacer though. he might be right about your PS pulley. mine doesnt have the dome that yours does, placing it a little farther out on the PS shaft.

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 08:59:44 PM »
Firebird Parts - Excellent pictures. I'll try to post better pictures of my car soon when I get down there to take some. I'll go through my albums and see if I've got some though.

Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 08:59:44 PM »



Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2015, 09:24:10 PM »
FirebirdParts is dead on... According to Frank's Pontiac Parts, I've got the pulley for an Olds 403







Also, here's good info on the pumps and the pressure hoses that 80 Trans Am has been mentioning

http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2006/09/01/hmn_feature34.html



And here's the pulley I'm considering

http://www.cvfracing.com/Pontiac-Power-Steering-Pulley-p/pont2ps.htm


Any thoughts? I plan to paint it, but the 3/4" shaft is the one I need correct? According to the Hemmings article, 3/4" is what I have, but I'll investigate further this weekend.

Again.. Thanks to everyone.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 09:42:25 PM by Kevin »

firebirdparts

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 09:51:11 PM »
I don't think it's keyed on the late 70's pontiacs.  I guess that aluminum pull works either way.  Whether the shaft is 3/4" or not, I don't know.  I never measured one.
I want to be like Paul Kenny when I grow up
Joe Bays
1977 Y82 4-speed (red interior)
1978 Skybird 350
1978 Redbird 305
1979 Redbird 301 4-speed
1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC/SE (red)
1970 Datsun Pickup
1953 Chevy pickup (converted 4x4)
1988 T-bird Turbo Coupe

80transam

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 05:49:08 PM »
i tried to get what i could to show how mine are mounted. now, i need to tell you, that as mentioned earlier, i had issues. the engine builder lost my brackets and all spacers but the long one for the alternator. then he bought the wrong pump. so the steering box required a bump fitting, while the pump took a flare. and the pump i got that took a bump fitting didn't have the studs in the back that my original did. so instead of studs, i used bolts, washers and spacers all bought from the local hardware store. as i said before... it can be done.
















i took this because it looked somewhat like yours. this is on a buick 455 in the shop.

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2015, 11:20:36 PM »
80 Trans Am, Thanks so much. This really really helps me out. The more I look at things, the more I think that my pulley is the sole source of the issue. Looking at your last photo, of the Buick 455, you can see how that 'dome' on the pulley, if removed/flattened, would bring the pulley square with the further out groove of the water pump pulley.


Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2015, 09:56:05 PM »
Here's my box.. So to speak...



This is a flare fitting correct?



Also, I've got some video of my removing the alternator etc. Mostly for my own benefit, so I know basically how it all goes back together. Oh and heres another fun picture  :-x  I was super pissed. Could have been goodbye 400....





I'm thinking of yanking the A/C crap.. Tired of looking at it anyway.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 09:59:35 PM by Kevin »

bluethunder

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2015, 10:32:58 AM »
I'm running 1967 #670 heads, and am missing the same point as you.

It's a simple fix, as you take a piece of heavy (I think mine was 1/4 or 3/16 flat, and bend a 90 degree into it. I put a bit of a gusset on it to stiffen it further.

You pick up the 2 intake manifold bolts  by the water neck to attach the 90 to the engine. I tapped the piece of angle to take the long bolt, and for extra thread, welded a nut on the back. You will need to shorten the spacer a little to take up the extra width from the bracket.


« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 10:42:45 AM by bluethunder »
My build..
Part 1:
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=4907.0

Part 2:
http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=74509.0

Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read! Groucho Marx

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2015, 01:46:13 PM »
Here's an update for everyone. Got the old pulley off and started to compare my setup with what the diagram shows. Pretty sure I'm going to be set once I get the new pulley. I believe all my spacers are in the correct locations. Any input is greatly appreciated of course.







Note the spacer in the following picture. It seems correct because it squares up the bracket with the front of the reservoir. Haven't measured it yet, but it looks flush.




This one is a little questionable. As you may notice farther up in the thread, someone indicated that my pulley looked like it wasn't flush with the crank/water pump pulleys, and I may have this guy to blame for that. If anyone has any other input into this spacer, please comment. I think I followed the diagram properly though



Here's the diagram i was trying to follow. The lines get blurred together with this spacer.






And the pulley that is incorrect...




Ordering a CVF Racing Billet aluminum pulley this afternoon that is press fit, non keyway.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 02:06:59 PM by Kevin »

Aus78Formula

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2015, 02:06:51 PM »
You can check the pulley number too, they are sought after by anyone adding a new power steering pump to their olds, comes up regularly in the wanted sections.

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2015, 09:42:27 PM »
Well I finally bought my pulley and installed it. Purchased it from CVF Racing.














Any thoughts on the install 'length'? I guess I'll just have to try it out and see what works, and then adjust as needed








KKosek

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2015, 02:59:58 PM »
Here is the Bracket that I made seem to work great.
1969 SSRS pace car
1970 1/2 Z28
1970 440 SIX PACK CHALLENGER
1957 Chevy Belair Vert
1978 Z28
1999 30th Anniversary T/A
1978 T/A
1979 10th Anniversary T/A
1988 GTA T/A
1973 Formula

Kevin

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2015, 10:15:44 AM »
Here is the Bracket that I made seem to work great.

Thanks a lot KKosek! Did you tack weld a nut to the back of that, or are you just using a nut like normal at the back of the bracket? Thats a great picture.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to put this thing together soon and post the results.

KKosek

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2015, 04:17:00 PM »
sorry for the late reply I tapped the hole and it works great used a little LOC tight
1969 SSRS pace car
1970 1/2 Z28
1970 440 SIX PACK CHALLENGER
1957 Chevy Belair Vert
1978 Z28
1999 30th Anniversary T/A
1978 T/A
1979 10th Anniversary T/A
1988 GTA T/A
1973 Formula

gstrandfarm9420

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2015, 12:48:23 PM »
I just went through the same process to piece together bracekets, the location of the different spacers on the pump brackets is ctitical to getting th pulleys lined up true. I just made a 1/4 in. 90 deg mount that bolted to the intake in order to use the #62 heads, just tap the hole for 3/8-16 threads. Hope you all got it sorted out by now.
I too have been having problems with the high pressure hose leaking at the steering box fitting ( flare fittings as all 1977 cars had) The first reman steering box leaked profusely even after changing hoses twice, returned the box to NPD, sent  another one out, it leaks too but not as bad, seeems to me the fitttings inside the box look pretty beat up...why? Now the Lares Corp. (the steering gear rebuilders) told me I damaged it by using a damaged hose fitting, but both hoses were brand new! Will tackle this problem this winter, but if anyone has any suggestions I am open. Thanks

Grand73Am

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2015, 06:03:39 PM »
The inverted flare inserts inside the holes in your steering box are replaceable. There's a way to remove and replace them. You can probably find instructions with a Google search.  I believe it involves screwing a screw into the insert and yanking or levering it out.  Then knock in some new ones.
Steve F.

EvilEdOlean

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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 11:14:34 AM »
Here is the Bracket that I made seem to work great.

I am just running into this same issue.  I have a 1970 Pontiac 350 I'm putting in my 1979 TA.  Just noticed this upper hole is not present in the 11 heads!!! More delays, I just don't have any luck....   On you above solution, I have an Edebelbrock performance manifold and would be afraid it might damage the aluminum intake with this type of braket.  Does anyone make a aftermarket part for this?    desperate in El Paso.  LOL
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Re: Pontiac 400 Power Steering and Alternator Bracketry
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 11:14:34 AM »
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