Author Topic: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project  (Read 92637 times)

cyber104

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #400 on: November 25, 2019, 06:54:12 AM »
It's not unusual to have to crank for a bit after the car has been sitting on a carbureted car. 

If I drive my car everyday then 1x pedal to the floor in the morning and it jumps to life.

If I let it sit several days its:  2x pedal to the floor and crank 5 seconds (no start) - then 2x pedal to the floor and it starts almost immediately.

MNBob - maybe that sequence will help it fire off more quickly - give it a try

Also, you still haven't mentioned if your choke is functioning correctly (unless I missed this info in a prior post).  The choke adjustment on a Qjet is critical and requires a bit of fiddling around to get it right since there is the "set" and the "pulloff".  Also, if it's electric choke then there is also a "duration" adjustment.  Without the choke - I can imagine crank times like yours.
1978 TA 4-Speed W72

FormTA

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #401 on: November 25, 2019, 07:36:17 AM »
I know on mine the float bowels are slowly loosing fuel.  I have even pulled the air cleaner and and there is no fuel spraying when pumping the accelerator pump (this is after it sits a few days). But there is after you have had the car running.

It's not a operation error or a choke problem.  I believe he has the same issue I do. Fuel is leaving the float bowel.

I wonder if there is a check valve one could install on the suction side of the fuel pump too. As it seems it takes longer than one would expect for the pump to even pump fuel after it has sat for a few days. Or, is there one built into the fuel pump and that has failed adding to the time it takes to get fuel back in the carb...

79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

Names, Luke. If I hear anyone telling me they're my father....

cyber104

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #402 on: November 25, 2019, 08:44:37 AM »
Well OK - I'm not arguing your points.

But I believe he stated that he had already fixed the well plugs.  If those are sealed then fuel is stuck in the bowl (unless the lead plugs beside the well plugs are also leaking) - it has no place to go.  It cannot be suctioned back out of the bowl thru the needle/seat - that just can't happen.

The only other thing I can think of is that the fuel is simply evaporating - although I think that's a long shot because there is a significant amount of fuel in the bowl.

I did find the following info which I think says it really well - I can't take credit for this explanation but it is very good:

"It's been my experience if you don't have an accelerator pump shot on a Q jet on a cold engine, it won't start. Even with a good working choke. The fuel level in the float bowl has to be above the accel pump transfer slot for the accel pump to get any fuel. If the fuel level is below the transfer slot there is usually a little fuel left in the pump circuit, enough for one or two squirts but many times that isn't enough to start a cold engine. The bowl doesn't have to lose all its fuel to not get any to the accel pump, just enough (about 1 1/2 - 2 oz) to get below the transfer slot. A few seconds of cranking and some pumping of the pedal is usually all it takes. But if the car has sat long enough, more fuel will have evaporated (or leaked) out and a longer period of cranking is required to fill the bowl enough to get above the transfer slot, unless you add some fuel through the bowl vent tube."

The only real way to figure this out is to take the carb off and fill up the bowl and see if it leaks out the bottom over time.

Chris
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 09:08:18 AM by cyber104 »
1978 TA 4-Speed W72

MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #403 on: November 27, 2019, 12:18:59 PM »
Chris, thanks for the info. I don't understand why the fuel cannot run out through the seat.  It is correct I have already fixed the well plugs.  I am going to bench test it when I take it off.  Right now I am waiting to get a non-windowed seat that is on order.

Here is a link to QuadrajetParts.com to a page where they sell a non-windowed seat.  Please read the Note at the bottom of the page:

https://quadrajetparts.com/needle-seat-assembly-windowed-p-2048.html
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #404 on: November 27, 2019, 02:09:44 PM »
Exhaust System Tweaks
A year ago, I added a third exhaust system hanger on both sides at the rear of the mufflers.  Unfortunately, raising up the mufflers caused the whole system to pivot and the right exhaust tip went down too far and did not match the left (see pic).

I drove it all season like this while fretting if I was going to have to cut and weld tailpipe 2 at a different angle.  Fortunately, the rear hanger for the pipe was a stout metal tab and all I had to do was bend it down (see pics). 

This was a opportunity to fine tune the whole rear of the system so I did the following tweaks:
1.  Filled three pinholes in my weld of the right tailpipe 2 with brazing.
2.  Pushed the right muffler forward all the way forward in its' connection with the exhaust pipe.
3.  Pulled the right tailpipe 1 out of the muffler a inch to give more clearance over the axle.
4.  Shortened the left tailpipe 2 where it connects to the splitter so the two tips are even lengthwise on both sides.


Splitter Too Low



Original TailPipe2 Hanger Tab



Welded Pipe Pin Hole Leaks



Filled Painted Pipe With Bent Tab



Splitter at Proper Height



Muffler Hangers
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #404 on: November 27, 2019, 02:09:44 PM »

cyber104

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #405 on: November 27, 2019, 05:37:13 PM »
Well Bob - I read the note and this is something new to me but I'm always willing to admit I don't know everything.  Although I can't imagine how this could happen clearly it must be able to as it is worthy of that notation.

I'll be very interested to see if this solves your issue - please report back.  If it works for you I'll be the next to give it a try.

Chris
1978 TA 4-Speed W72

MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #406 on: November 28, 2019, 09:36:32 AM »
There was no cutting for the TKO600 install.  In fact, there was room to spare so you could literally pick your pinion angle.  I could have gone an inch higher to a few inches lower.  I highly recommend the American Powertrain X-Factor cross member because of its adjustability.  It can be adjusted forward/back, up/down, and side to side.

The shifter fits perfectly in the console even better than the 4 speed.  Between the transmission and shifter parts, the shifter location can be adjusted to fit almost any application.

I am pleased pink with this tranny and the gearing is perfect with the 3.23.  A high amount of overdrive (1900 at 70), yet I typically shift into 5th at 45 mph.  I have now learned the gearing and know the speed to downshift into the various gears and it does this so easily with the synchro's.  Perfect!


Shifter Close Up
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #407 on: December 02, 2019, 03:40:37 PM »
Between company and snow, it has been difficult to find time for the carb job.  I finally got it out and apart yesterday.  Although I have taken the carb apart many times, I did not remember the exact layout of the bowl areas.

Findings
There are two bowl areas inside (see pics 2 & 3 below).  I will call the first the inlet bowl area.  Although this area looks relatively small, it is connected to the big round well where the plastic cup is installed. Then there is the big main bowl area.

The two bowl areas are separated by some wall structures.  There are two slots in the walls allowing fuel to flow between them.  The first slot is a square shaped entry and is about 1.25" above the floor of the main bowl.  The second is a V shaped notch and is about 3/4" above the floor of the main bowl.  See pic 5 for photo.

The car had last run 6 days ago.  Upon initial inspection, this is what I found:
1.  There was no gas in the fuel line attaching to the carb.  This is new in the last few times removing the carb.
2.  There was no gas in the inlet bowl.
3.  There was 3/8" fuel in the main bowl.

I bench tested the carb overnight filling it with fuel.  This morning there was about 3/4" in the main bowl.  No fuel ran out of the fuel line hookup area into a cup I had placed under it.  However, there wasn't much fuel in the inlet bowl area.  I put the float in and it looks like the normal fuel level in the main bowl may be about an inch.

Conclusions
I still think the fuel is draining from the carb through the needle and seat and all the way back to the pump.  As Chris pointed out, this cannot empty the main bowl completely because the V slot is 3/4" above the floor of main bowl.  I don't think the well plugs are leaking or if they are, it is minimal.  Also, with the carb vented, I think evaporation is a significant factor.  I agree with the nature of the beast comment above, but right now the overnight starts are taking several extra spins of the starter that I did not use to have.

Plan
I am going to install the non-windowed seat to keep fuel in the inlet bowl and remove the plastic cup.  This cup does nothing but take up space that could be used for fuel and also fills with fuel that cannot be used.  I am also going to replace the fuel filter and spring as it is obvious that the fuel filter check valve is not working.


Float Down In Initial Inspection



Fuel In Bowl After 6 Days



Inlet and Main Bowl Areas



Catch Cup



Square and V Transfer Slots
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

Nexus

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #408 on: December 03, 2019, 09:20:41 AM »
Carbs have always been a mystical part of the engine I mever took enough time to study and learn. It is on my list of things to do one day
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(19 years and counting but still have her)

roadking77

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #409 on: December 03, 2019, 03:04:48 PM »
Im with you Charlie, carbs and transmissions. My hats off to anyone that attempts either one. There are a couple of books out, one on rebuilding the Qjet, and another on 4 speed trans that I want to get. I dont plan on doing either but I would like to know a bit more about them just because.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

roadking77

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #410 on: December 03, 2019, 03:06:58 PM »
Bob, i have been meaning to send you an email, but i will ask you here. What is the finish inside the trunk of your car? I am ready to get mine done. I think my car in spite of itself is pretty original but the trunk looks like a plain black finish. Is that correct or was there splatter paint and what colour?
Thanks,
Kerry
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #411 on: December 04, 2019, 05:06:08 PM »
You guys don't get any sympathy from me.  I think if you run a carb, you should know how to rebuild it.  The carbs need maintenance as the gaskets harden and the power piston can wear.  It is not really that hard.  There are about 10 parts/steps that have to be done and there is a sticky on our site.  And I am willing to help anytime.

Kerry, below is a pic of my original trunk floor; I have the original 1/8" thick black carpet that I had to lift to get this photo.  The dull spots are the glue for the carpet.  The surface is almost like a black undercoat, but the material is hard and can not be scratched with a fingernail.


Original Trunk Floor
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

FormTA

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #412 on: December 04, 2019, 05:43:06 PM »
Wow. It's hard to believe that is how they left the factory.  Compare that to 1982 trans am. Only a few years and the fit and finish goes up 50%.
79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

Names, Luke. If I hear anyone telling me they're my father....

olds403

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #413 on: December 04, 2019, 09:17:59 PM »
The carb is probably leaking at the well plugs. take the base plate off and look.  Then use ethanol resistant epoxy and sell the well plugs. 

roadking77

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #414 on: December 05, 2019, 08:06:30 AM »
Thanks Bob, I dont have a trunk mat, but that pretty much is what the inside of my trunk looks like a well. Confirms my thought of originality.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #414 on: December 05, 2019, 08:06:30 AM »



MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #415 on: December 05, 2019, 09:45:02 AM »
Quote
The carb is probably leaking at the well plugs. take the base plate off and look.  Then use ethanol resistant epoxy and sell the well plugs.

I already did that a couple of years ago (see pic below or reply #209).  These plugs could be leaking though.  I bench tested the bowl holding fuel overnight on Sunday.  This test was inconclusive; if they are leaking it is pretty slow.

Well Plugs
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

MNBob

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #416 on: December 05, 2019, 10:47:33 AM »
Carb Re-Installed
I reassembled and installed the carb.  Made the following changes:
1.  New non-windowed seat.  I debated on the needle clip but kept it.
2.  Removed the plastic cup from the round well.
3.  Threw in a set of 71 jets (see pic 1); I just want to compare them to the 72's; (original was 70's).
 
I ordered a new inlet filter and spring from Quadrajet Power.  Unfortunately, the new filter had no check valve at all!  So I reinstalled the filter I got from Cliff the last time I rebuilt the carb.  The new spring was a really nice piece.  It was much stronger than the old one so I used it.  The filter from Cliff had a thick rubber seal at the inlet end while the new one only had a thin paper seal.

I examined the check valve in the old filter.  This ia a pretty crude setup so I can see why it would not work.  I really think that a check valve designed for fuel systems should be added to the line; something like this:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-650603

I don't pre-fill the carb so it took about 30 seconds of cranking to start.  Ran perfectly.  The next morning I started it and could not tell any difference in starting time!


New Jets Installed



Reassembled On Bench



Carb Installed
1979 TATA Extreme TKO .64
Hedman elite; Pypes 2.5; Borla XS; MSD 6A; Edelbrock intake; open scoop; modified Q-jet; Powermaster 150; 4 core radiator/Mark VIII fan; RobbMc mini starter; subframe connectors; solid body mounts; fiberglass rear springs; poly sway bar and link bushings; 81 master; D52’s; Blazer disks; 225/60 & 235/60 17's TrueContact's; relays for PW, PDL, lights; keyless entry

FormTA

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #417 on: December 05, 2019, 12:38:40 PM »
Good deal. So do you think  the answer was the non-windowed seat?

Give us an update in a few more days. Thanks for the documentation!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 07:14:46 AM by FormTA »
79 Trans am 301 (work in progress) LS swap n progress
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (Work in progress)
See the recurring theme???

Names, Luke. If I hear anyone telling me they're my father....

cyber104

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #418 on: December 06, 2019, 07:07:43 AM »
Bob - this certainly sounds promising!

I'll be very interested to hear how the restart goes if the car has sat for a few days.

Chris
1978 TA 4-Speed W72

roadking77

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #419 on: December 06, 2019, 07:31:08 AM »
I hope that solves the issues for you.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

Nexus

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Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #420 on: December 09, 2019, 10:25:46 PM »
Very cool...hope this is a certified, solved issue!!
Charlie

79 Esprit but like many, it will be a T/A clone
(19 years and counting but still have her)

Re: 79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project
« Reply #420 on: December 09, 2019, 10:25:46 PM »
You can help support TAC!