Author Topic: Brake Help  (Read 3506 times)

roadking77

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Brake Help
« on: May 06, 2024, 01:34:07 PM »
If anyone has a stock disc brake settup from 79, is it possible to post some pics of the caliper and in particular the line feeding into the caliper.

I am having a devil of a time getting my rear brakes hooked up. I bought calipers from Firebird Central and after talking with them found out they are for someone doing a conversion to disc brakes. I have hard lines installed which I thought were exact reproductions, I may have bought them from inline tube? The hard lines I have do not fit into the Caliper. The Caliper I have is made to accept a banjo bolt not a flare nut fitting that I have. I have tried getting parts to marry the two together but so far no luck. I found something close from JEGS, an inverted flare female fitting but the threading is off. I called and what I got from them is the closest thing they have.

Looking in my 1979 Service Supplement Manual I see nothing in reference to the 'feed' line other than a note that says
"if brass bolt and block were removed..."  Looking at Tom's thread about a parking brake I can see in the pic what I think is the brass block.

SO, I am looking for ideas, or if someone has an original pair of calipers that can be rebuilt that they want to part with.
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tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2024, 04:31:44 PM »
I’ll check my 79 tomorrow ….been awhile since I did those.

tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2024, 11:29:42 AM »
Drivers side:

tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2024, 11:33:07 AM »
Passenger side:

tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2024, 11:37:02 AM »
Pretty close to stock if I remember right. Swapped out those brake lines about 10 years ago and the stock ones also had the excessive bends prior to the caliper for the side to side movement

Re: Brake Help
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2024, 11:37:02 AM »

roadking77

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2024, 01:25:17 PM »
PERFECT!!  Thanks so much. The last pic shows pretty clear the 'block' that the line feeds into. The 'block' appears to be installed with a banjo bolt. That is the part I have been having a problem with. That block thingy is creating more problems for me than should be allowed. I see I dont really need new calipers, just that termination block. A couple of people have been telling me that the rear used a flex line similar to the front which I had my doubts. Thanks for confirming. I have the same lines on my rear that are new but supposed to be good repro's, which they appear to be.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2024, 09:58:23 PM »
No problem, I think that banjo bolt has a pretty decent shoulder to it… Good luck.

roadking77

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2024, 04:49:15 AM »
After much digging yesterday I found my original calipers. Was able to salvage the brass block and using a new bolt and washers got things hooked up. Now to get the system bled!

Thanks again for your help, it was greatly appreciated.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

glhx

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2024, 02:12:38 AM »
I have this system and I have had a very hard time getting it bled. The fronts bleed fine.
The back passenger side as well.

The drivers side keeps pulling in air and I think it’s pulling it into the caliper from the parking brake system.

If you can get this bled. Please post and let me know what you did and where you got your parts from.

My whole system is all new. All the hoses, brake lines, calipers and master are new

roadking77

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2024, 04:36:49 AM »
I am having the same issue actually. I have a 'mighty vac' hand pump that I used on the fronts and it worked like a charm. I got the rear caliper hooked up and started with the mighty vac last night and I pumped until I couldnt stand it any longer. After letting it sit a bit I found a leak where the main hard line attaches to the flex line that leads to the splitter on the rear. I have a very clean shop floor and saw a drop of fluid. I tightened that up and pumped some more but no luck. I figure I at least have fluid to that point in the system. I am going to get help today on the brake pedal and try it that way. If that doesnt work I am planning on going back over the system.

When the shop did my 77 the mechanic told me he could not get the rears bled and found out it was a bad master cylinder?
He swapped it out and solved the problem.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

glhx

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2024, 08:58:17 AM »
 Mine isn’t leaking fluid. It’s pulling in air.
What I did was several things

First I used a pressure bleeder. This didn’t help
Then I bled them with help of a person…..the normal way. It didn’t help

Then I hooked 8’ of 3/16” tubing to the bleeder screw and ram it all the way up to the master cylinder to cycle the fluid. Like bench bleeding but on the whole car. I sealed the threads with Teflon tape for the bleed only. Then cracked the screw and left it open. 200 pumps later and it still pulled in air.

To rule out the Teflon tape being the problem. I drilled a bleed screw down the center so it could be tightened down all the way but still flow fluid. Still hooked to the 3/16 tubing to the master cylinder and cycling. 200+ pumps later it’s still pulling air.

So then I got a second person. Went back to the original bleed screw and hooked back up the 3/16 tubing back to the master cylinder.
I don’t see why the fluid needs to go into a bottle when it can just go back to the master cylinder.
Bled the natural way…..
3 pumps and crack the bleed screw.
This showed me.

For sure that somewhere in the drivers side back caliper or the lines in between are pulling in air.
It’s timed air.
I pump it up 3 times and crack the screw. No air.
Pump it again and crack the screw. Same amount of air every other time and it cycles like this.
3 times….no air……3 more times…..air…….3 more times…..no air

My next step is to take apart the caliper and look for putting in the seal area.
And remove the brake line and re seat it.

Other than that…….it has been a long expensive problem.

The whole system is all new. I’ve replace everything.

I will add that bleeding this way with the hose from caliper to the master cylinder. With this type of caliper will allow you to pump the Brakes as many times as you want with no mess and it will get all the air out of the system. If there is no leak.

I’m 100% sure I’m pulling air in the drivers side system.

I’m hoping you have better luck.
These are calipers from oreilly but they are cardone rebuilds

I have solid knowledge of the system. Especially how to set the e brake and how the caliper works internally.

I have some old calipers taken apart showing the whole thing.
I have a good idea which seal is leaking and im pretty sure it’s the e brake seal.

The yellow thing in the center is typically not a leak point. There is a large o ring in the piston itself that should seal all of that. It’s buried way down inside the piston ratcheting system.


5th T/A

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2024, 11:59:17 AM »
Several people have problems here, so my 2 cents worth with some suggestions. While vacuum bleeding can work I was never a big fan. You can only draw 30” of Mercury with Vacuum. Working pressure on a hydraulic brake system is probably 1000 PSI, maybe more. Meaning the lines and fittings are probably rated to withstand many times that, like 3000-4000PSI. Meaning brake fluid that can not compress should show any leak better than a vacuum. As far as how many brake pedal pumps to successfully bled a system, it should never take a hundred. Usually anywhere from 1-2 quarts of fluid. I never recirculate the fluid because it could be contaminated. I never use brake fluid from an open container because once open it will absorb  moisture.

To start I would have one of the bleeders open on a rear caliper and have a helper slowly pump the brake pedal. At this point no need to close the bleeder screw every time the pedal is down as you are just trying to get fluid to the back of the car. Once the fluid starts spurting, close the bleeder screw when the brake pedal is down, do not release the pedal until the bleeder is closed. Then the helper in the car should pump the pedal several times, while they are holding down the pedal, crack open the screw and tighten bleeder before repeating the process. Eventually the pedal should get higher and harder as all the air is bled out. I usually put a plastic hose on the end of the bleeder screw running to a jar to avoid getting brake fluid on car parts as it will remove paint and makes less of a mess. Cover fender near the master to protect paint from any spilled or splashed fluid. While bleeding the master cylinder cover should be in place to avoid splashing. At the same time the fluid should never get to the bottom of the reservoir or you will induce air into the master.

Assuming you don’t get a firm pedal and it’s not obvious where you have a leak. You can  eliminate components such as calipers, lines, fittings, proportioning valve. You can use an inverted flare nut to cap the circuit, weld it shut or try epoxy to create a plug. For male end you could use an inverted flare union. Starting at the rubber hose and T on the rear axel. If that doesn’t give you a firm pedal you could disconnect the line from the rear brake line to the proportioning valve and put the plug in there. Keep in mind when you are putting this plug in you would treat it as a bleeder screw and still have to bleed the circuit. But this should allow you to isolate the problem.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2024, 12:10:05 PM by 5th T/A »
1980 T/A with a Pontiac 461

Gone but not forgotten;
1973 T/A 455
1975 T/A 400
1978 T/A W72
1982 T/A cross fire injected

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2013 Honda CB1100
2010 Yamaha Vmax
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tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2024, 05:38:34 PM »
Maybe pull the MC off the booster enough to check for dampness/leak without disconnecting the lines. I would try a gravity bleed then button it up and test it. Hold that pedal down for a few minutes then check for leaks.

I’m also posting the same info on the other post with glhx

roadking77

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2024, 06:54:35 AM »
I followed 5th T/A's procedure and had no problems getting things bled. Once the fluid started flowing it took no time at all. However I ran into another issue. I will update hopefully on Wed after I get new parts in the mail.

Only thing I will ad is that I used a helper pushing the brake pedal, and I used a clear piece of tubing draining into a quart painters cup with a bit of fluid in the bottom to start. I read someplace a long time ago to never 'recycle' brake fluid so I figure $10 is a cheap sacrifice to keep a clean brake system.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
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glhx

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2024, 05:27:22 AM »
I’m at the point where I’m going to have to isolate and cap the system. Possible trying to use a union and putting a bleeder screw at the union. Right before the passenger side caliper.

The calipers have 3 seals in them. The shaft seal, the piston seal, and a large seal inside the piston.
The rebuild kit comes with 2 of these and not the third one. It does not come with the seal for the ratcheting system inside the piston. Which makes me wonder if these rebuilders are using kits and not replacing that one. At first I thought it was an o ring, but it’s not.

The yellow seal on the outside of the piston is a check valve of sorts. It’s easy to take off. You should be able to blow into that hole and it should be sealed. Because of the large seal inside the piston that seals all of that.

If any of those are pulling in air due to pitted metal, Bad clearances, or cheap parts, I can see where a caliper will pull in air. I’m thinking the shaft seal is where. Mainly because I saw an air bubble come out of it when I was adjusting the e brake lever. I looked over it and thought Since it was a new caliper, that it would be fine.

I’m pretty sure my calipers are pulling in air. So I will plug that line and isolate that caliper. However, it’s the second new caliper.
And how long till that seal doesn’t seal. A month later it might decide to fail. So I’m at my last with this.

I’ve got few options. If I can’t buy new parts and solve these problems. What does that leave.
I’m going to take apart the caliper and inspect the rebuild.
See if I can test the caliper off the car with a vacuum pump or pressure bleeder and see if it drains down air.
Which I did for the whole system. I pumped it up with no fluid in the entire system. At 12psi it started leaking down air.

Then I bought a lot of fittings to cap the system and isolate to find out why. There is not a lot of pieces to do this. But I think I have enough.

I’m thinking I will find the caliper is not sealing. I’m pretty sure

Then what? If I can’t buy new parts and not have problems with them. What does that. Leave

I can entertain a couple of options.
……..Change out the whole rear end with one from a different care that has a drum in hat system
……..put drum brakes on it which I know won’t leak
……..put in non e brake calipers back there if I can find ones that bolt up
……..get a really expensive brand with a better design.

Like I said…….im at the end of trying to mess with this.


Re: Brake Help
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2024, 05:27:22 AM »

tinpusher

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2024, 01:10:31 PM »
The Right Stuff Detailing AFXRD07 75-81 Camaro/Firebird. Rear Disc Brake Conversion kit with parking brake. Staggered Shocks.
Roll over image to zoom in
The Right Stuff Detailing AFXRD07 75-81 Camaro/Firebird. Rear Disc Brake Conversion kit with parking brake. Staggered Shocks.
Brand: Right Stuff Detailing
5.0 5.0 out of 5 stars    4 ratings  | Search this page
$548.95 $548.95


Might be an option, saw this on Amazon from Jeggs, summit would also have it.

I still can’t understand how air is getting pulled in the system, but it’s not leaking fluid especially when you apply hydraulic pressure.  Very, very strange.

roadking77

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2024, 05:16:14 PM »
I have been waiting until I was finished before I made and update but I am very close to finishing I THINK. I had a few hiccups but they were all self induced and not the fault of the braking system. I was planning on getting into the shop tonight and being done with it but sat down on the couch after a bit of dinner and fell to sleep. To late now to go out. I will tackle it in the morning.
I hate to leave things hanging but really dont want to make a comment on what I have until its finished, just in case.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
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FormTA

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2024, 05:43:32 AM »


Man, this last year I have contracted that same disease... where you sit down and fall asleep.  I didn't even know I could do that... Why are we so tired as we get older?? I do get up at 4:50am but that isn't anything new...

79 Trans am low buck LS swapped
79 Formula 301 (Work in progress)
67 RS Camaro (waiting it's turn)
69 Dodge charger on late model charger chassis
49 Ford F1 on a 2003 Chevy ZR2 Chassis (current project)
Names, Luke. If I hear anyone telling me they're my father....

roadking77

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Re: Brake Help
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2024, 03:12:47 PM »
Luke, I could still run with the big dogs until I hit 50. Then it seemed like things started to break down. I suppose thats all the warranty I had :lol: Then I hit 60 and that was definitely an eye opener. I still think I can do a lot but once I get started I wear down. It doesnt help that I am at least 40lbs overweight :shock: I do have a lot of will power and keep telling myself to get into shape before its too late. I know I can, just havent got to the start line yet.

AS FOR MY BRAKES! I got the air bled out, and am pretty sure I have good brakes at all 4 corners. I bought replacement calipers from Firebird Central. I did not know about the brass block that the hard line screws into. I did find one but not the other. SO, I went online and found a place that sells nothing but brake fittings and found a set of banjo bolts that do the same thing as the block but updated. I got those hooked up and everything works great. I am going to let it sit overnight then check again for leaks, but so far it all looks good.
Finished!
77 T/A - I will Call this one DONE!
79 TATA 4sp-Next Project?
79 TATA - Lost to Fire!
86 Grand Prix - Sold
85 T/A - Sold
85 Fiero - Sold
82 Firebird - Sold
'38-CZ 250
'39-BSA Gold Star
'49-Triumph 350
'52-Ariel Red Hunter
'66-BSA Lightning
'01-HD RoadKing

Re: Brake Help
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2024, 03:12:47 PM »
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