TAC Tech => Mechanical => Topic started by: yellow1098 on September 03, 2018, 10:40:19 PM

Title: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 03, 2018, 10:40:19 PM
Ok I just started the process of building my stroker with a goal of 500hp. I just dropped off my 70 4bolt main block at the machine shop. Now I'm look at which stroker kit to buy...the first call I made was to Butler and they suggested the 461 all forged and pre balanced with Ross flat top pistons and
H-beam 4340 rods. I am first wondering why the 461 and not the other slightly larger strokes like the 468 or 472? The kit they suggested is $2,200

I also have a question about which cam to go with??...they suggested a custom grind hydraulic roller cam 282/288, 230/236, .510/.521, 112LS....I am wonder if there are benefits and differences to going with a solid roller cam instead? If I have that right....the heads I will be using are edlebrock aluminum 87cc.

One of the problems I have been told to reach my hp goals will be the intake I have...which is an edlebrock stock replacement...if I ran the edlebrock RPM or better will I have problems with my shaker? I believe PTFB sells a shaker base that makes this situation better to run the other intakes so I am looking for some feedback on that as well. I was also planning to run a small shot of nitrous once everything is all said and done. So any feedback on this intake situation would be wonderful!

My main reason for writing this post was to get feedback on my combo and how I could best get to my hp goal with the right stroker combo and cam... as well as how I run the correct intake while keeping my shaker... I also know Butler is the top dog and thus has the highest prices for Pontiac engine parts and if anyone has any experience working with Kauffman or any other Pontiac builders that would be a better price and get me setup right! Thank you all so much as always!
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 03, 2018, 11:24:01 PM
I used a drop base shaker and it worked out pretty good. It does make the shaker fully functional, meaning that it becomes the source for intake air. If you haven't looked already , the book "How to rebuild Pontiac Engines" show some pretty good combinations to get the HP goals you are looking for. The best advice I have gotten regarding rebuilding engines is to consider the entire engine build and what setup will work best together.

Jim
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: nas t eh on September 04, 2018, 01:23:52 AM
Do you only want 500HP or a little more, 461 is big enough, get the heads CNC ported to around 300cfm, plan on a cam with closer to .600 lift. Run the RPM intake and the drop base air cleaner set up. You can find all the stuff a little cheaper than from Butler. But if you get the heads and cam and everything else from them, You can have them ensure it all will work together. Also don’t cheap out on Chinese roller rockers, the other stuff yes but not the rockers.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 04, 2018, 08:48:54 AM
There are advantages to both the 4.21" & 4.25" stroker assemblies. Most agree that, for street use, the 4.21" stroke is more than adequate, to make 500hp or more. It uses the Pontiac 6.625" rod length, & Pontiac size rod journals & pin size. The 4.25" assembly uses rods with BBC specs on each end, usually in either 6.7" or 6.8" length. Some say the longer rods have advantages. But, they are also slightly heavier.

I've added up the cost of buying the parts separately vs buying a complete balanced assembly from Butler. I have found that there is very little to be saved.

The one advantage I do see is the option to buy pistons made of the 4032 material, rather than the 2618 material used in Ross pistons & others. The 2618 material is used for racing pistons. It expands more than the 4032 material. Therefore, many consider pistons made of the 4032 material a better choice for street driven vehicles, since the engine can be built with less piston to cylinder wall clearance.

Auto Tec brand pistons are made of this 4032 material. The difference is explained on this home page.

http://racetecpistons.com/pages/autotec.php

Auto Tec has shelf pistons listed for Pontiac stroker assemblies. And, it is said that they will move the pin location, for no additional charge. This allows the builder to achieve zero or near zero deck height, without cutting as much material off the block deck.

https://shanonsengineering.com/collections/ebay-motors-parts-accessories-car-truck-parts-engines-components-pistons-rings-rods-parts/products/auto-tec-small-block-pontiac-400-428-455-flat-top-pistons

Now, if you choose to buy the assembly parts separately, you will have to choose the crank, rods, pistons, rings, rod bearings & main bearings. I am not currently aware of any Pontiac shop or engine builder who advertises a stroker assembly which uses the Auto Tec pistons.

About the intake: With 455 or more cubic inches, it has been proven that a single plane intake works great, even for street use. If you plan to use a square bore carb, you can use a Torker 2 intake.

If you wanna use a Q-jet, you can use a Holley Street Dominator intake, or the Chinese single plane, which is said to be copied after the HSD, but without the exhaust crossover.   

A cam similar to this one should get you up to around 500hp or more, and still be very streetable.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29361765-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3316-3317-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

The "Stump Puller" cam made over 500hp with ported #11 iron heads.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1815

So, with good alum heads, you should be able to get up near 500hp, with this Butler cam. I see absolutely no reason to run .600 lift in a mostly street driven car. To me, it just puts more strain on the entire valve train. But, if max power is the goal, then a huge, barely streetable cam is called for.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29361022-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3315-3316-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24452926-butler-performance-edelbrock-custom-87cc-290cfm-aluminum-d-port-pontiac-cylinder-headspairbpi-87cc-edl-dport-290.html?ref=category:1287735

KRE also has roller cams similar to these above. Check out the HR230, HR236, & HR242.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Cams%20and%20Parts.htm

Check out the 575hp KRE engine at this link. It sounds similar to what you want. The High Port heads flow about 330cfm, right out of the box. My engine guy built a 400 block 4.5" stroker, using unported HP heads, which made 755hp.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Street%20Engines.htm

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Aluminum%20High%20Port%20Cylinder%20Heads.htm

"...I was told that I would have alittle trouble running pump gas if I wanted that power because the compression would be pretty high..."

With all due respect, if you have a budget big enuff to build a 600hp Pontiac engine, then the small cost of adding in some Torco Accelerator octane booster to your pump gas shouldn't be a problem at all. IMO

https://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/un_acce.html

https://www.amazon.com/Torco-Octane-Booster-Quarts-Accelerator/dp/B005S2BKDQ

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 04, 2018, 08:58:16 AM
Alittle more for sure.....500 is definitely the baseline...but 550-600 would be awesome and ideal....I was told that I would have alittle trouble running pump gas if I wanted that power because the compression would be pretty high.....I will definitely look for a better cam closer to that lift...do you have any specific ones or who I should call? Thanks so much!
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 04, 2018, 12:00:59 PM
Alittle more for sure.....500 is definitely the baseline...but 550-600 would be awesome and ideal....I was told that I would have alittle trouble running pump gas if I wanted that power because the compression would be pretty high.....I will definitely look for a better cam closer to that lift...do you have any specific ones or who I should call? Thanks so much!
They all Have Cookie Cutter Recipes.
Meaning its been the same for a long time now.
If You want something different or Huge Power you will have to design your own or find a guy to do it.
I taught myself reading books & being on engine building race forums.

Pontiac V8 & Big Power on pump gas 93 never has been easy to compete with Dodge and Chevrolet at 1,000-1500 Hp where there at now.

Using Racing gasoline solves all.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 04, 2018, 12:37:38 PM
I figured the combos were somewhat cookie cutter.....that's exactly why I wrote this post to ask guys like you which ways would be better...I definitely don't need 1k HP...but I figured if your spending the money why not get the most out of it...
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 04, 2018, 12:43:16 PM
I figured the combos were somewhat cookie cutter.....that's exactly why I wrote this post to ask guys like you which ways would be better...I definitely don't need 1k HP...but I figured if your spending the money why not get the most out of it...
If You cruising most of the time and not racing 500 HP will feel real good.

You get against modern muscle and run down the road your going to be wanting more.

The easiest way to beat them & Win is to use a Full Race Camshaft on the street.
It is actually Reliable with 110 octane race gas used.
Most will state its impossible and bad street manners make it impossible to drive.
Only partly true.
DO NOT DRIVE SLOW>Step on it and Race to Win.

The other way with soft mild cams and pump gas you have to do your homework.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 04, 2018, 02:15:26 PM
Well the plan was for the best of both worlds...get around 500-550 on motor and beat most things on the street then when someone has something serious have 100 shot to teach them a lesson..the problem with only being able to run pump gas is I drive the car a lot and I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 04, 2018, 02:49:09 PM
Well the plan was for the best of both worlds...get around 500-550 on motor and beat most things on the street then when someone has something serious have 100 shot to teach them a lesson..the problem with only being able to run pump gas is I drive the car a lot and I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea.
[/quote
To Beat most things on the street it has to Rev up fairly high.
More than target Rpm has been set here at 5000-5500.

Need 6200-6500 RPM.
Take on the H car Hellcat need 7200 RPM.

6200-6500 RPM can be done without breaking the bank .

To avoid the Cookie Cutter you will need to research on your own.

I order Cams direct from the manufacturer.
Talk to the Tech guys or owners yourself.
State your goals & No Safe Zone wanted.
Race to Win.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 04, 2018, 02:53:14 PM
Well the plan was for the best of both worlds...get around 500-550 on motor and beat most things on the street then when someone has something serious have 100 shot to teach them a lesson..the problem with only being able to run pump gas is I drive the car a lot and I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea.
Yes TORCO & VP ACCELERATOR Octane Booster is expensive.
To get Max results its One quart can needed per 5 gallons of gasoline.
4 cans needed for 20 gallons of pump 93 octane.
$20 per can of the good octane booster.
$80 per tankfull + cost of 93 octane pump gas.

YOUR BETTER OFF BUYING & FILLING THE GAS TANK WITH 110 LEADED RACE GAS.
BE MONEY AHEAD.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 04, 2018, 03:44:05 PM
"...I would have to ride around with an additive and driving around with race gas doesn’t seem like the best idea..."


Maybe you need to look at those KRE engines again. One of the 400 block engines makes 635hp ON PUMP GAS.

Or, if you really wanna make some power, go to an aftermarket block & around 535 cubic inches. KRE shows some aftermarket block PUMP GAS N/A engines up to 800hp. You can even go with an alum block & save weight.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Street%20Engines.htm

Butler builds 'em too.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24487140-bp-crate-engine-461-501-cu-in-turn-key.html?ref=category:1267471

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24487141-bp-crate-engine-505-541-cu-in-w-iaii-block.html?ref=category:1267471

SD posts that a 535 with their "Road Paver" cam will make a "very streetable" 650hp +.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1817

Paul Vandoval can also build a big power engine. His website is down right now. But here's his FB page.

https://www.facebook.com/Sandoval-Performance-232977136739337/

Don Johnston can also build one for you.

http://www.dcimotorsports.com/services/pontiac-v8-engine-builder/

https://www.dcimotorsports.com/

And there's Paul Knippen.

https://www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors/

Bottom line is that all the power you seem to want is available in a PUMP GAS engine, if you have the money to pay for it.

 

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 04, 2018, 04:22:57 PM
There is supercharging and turbocharging.

Run on pump gas and compete hard.

Latest Hotrod I seen today has a do it yourself 1000 Hp pump gas Hemi late model on the front cover.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 04, 2018, 08:54:05 PM
Man, you guys are hard core. :-D
(By the way, how much power can a street tire actually transmit to the pavement?)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 04, 2018, 08:59:11 PM
A whole lot...if you go from a roll ;)......but back to the important questions of how I get there...with that stroker kit is the difference just cam and intake with my 87cc's? Or do I need to look at that longer stroke?
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 05, 2018, 06:00:17 AM
"...how much power can a street tire actually transmit to the pavement?..."


That's a great question. And the answer is: It all depends on the weight of the car, the suspension, and exactly which "street tire" you're running.

In the Factory Appearing Stock Tire (F.A.S.T.) racing series, there are cars running low 10's, & some even high 9's on narrow, hard, bias-ply street tires. But, the suspensions on those cars have been tweeked out to the max, within the rules, and drag strip tested, in order to obtain the best ET.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2010/10/06/f-a-s-t-racers-break-9-second-barrier/

https://www.fastdrags.com/fast-rules

https://www.facebook.com/FASTRacingSeries

Now, there are some sticky street legal tires. These will hook up MUCH better than the hard compound street tires. Nitto makes some popular sticky street tires. But, I think Mickey Thompson has the best selection. Obviously, the softer the compound, the fewer street miles you can get from a set. 

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/wheels-tires/dot-drag-radials-101-what-you-need-to-know-about-drag-radials/

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 05, 2018, 06:07:32 AM
They are running 6's in the 275 Drag Radial Class.
10.5" inches wide rear tires.

The record on Leaf springs is in the 7's by a Chevy 1st Gen Camaro.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 05, 2018, 06:38:34 AM
"...do I need to look at that longer stroke? "


A longer stroke may not increase hp that much, but it can increase torque quite a bit, and will produce more torque at a lower rpm. With the long stroke engine, you can run less rear gear, which will make your car more streetable, if you wanna do any highway cruising. While you may not notice any difference between the 4.21 & 4.25 stroke, you will definitely notice a difference when moving up to the 4.5 stroke. My engine guy's 4.5 stroke engine made 755 peak hp @ only 5900 rpm. And it had over 700 torque, well below 5000 rpm.

But, some guys prefer less stroke & cubic inch. To make up the difference, they cam for more rpm, & use more rear gear. Some just like to hear the engine scream, at 7000rpm +. I remember seeing Jack Mullins driving a 389 4-speed Super Stock station wagon, back in '75. He'd have that 389 screamin. I didn't think a Pontiac engine could turn that many rpm & live. He said he occasionally left the line at 8200rpm. :-o He won 2 national events that year, including the US Nationals.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Nowadays, there are lots of high rpm Pontiac racing engines in Stock & SS. Mike Morgan has a 350 powered '77 Formy that runs mid 10's. I assume the engine has to go 8000rpm +, in order to go that quick.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=344596&Filter=Year2018#indextop

Some here might say, "What do race cars have to do with this thread ?" Well, for most normal street threads, race engine info does not usually relate, at all.

BUT, since the OP in this thread seems to want a lot more power than an average street engine has, the race engine info shows what is possible, in race form. Then you have to determine what must be changed, in order to build an engine which will make lots of power, BUT also be streetable.


Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 05, 2018, 07:25:20 AM
Torque and Horsepower are Mathematical equal at 5250 RPM.
You can not have horsepower without torque.

It starts to get expensive anything bigger than 480 cubic inches.
Money put in becomes subjective not worth it unless Class NHRA Drag Racing & Competing with payouts.

Supercharging & Turbo Charging Prevails.

Smokey Yunick took a 283 Chevy & Single Turbo charged it for Indy.
It had over 1000 HP .
Late 1960's.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 05, 2018, 03:28:08 PM
"...how much power can a street tire actually transmit to the pavement?..."


That's a great question. And the answer is: It all depends on the weight of the car, the suspension, and exactly which "street tire" you're running.

In the Factory Appearing Stock Tire (F.A.S.T.) racing series, there are cars running low 10's, & some even high 9's on narrow, hard, bias-ply street tires. But, the suspensions on those cars have been tweeked out to the max, within the rules, and drag strip tested, in order to obtain the best ET.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2010/10/06/f-a-s-t-racers-break-9-second-barrier/

https://www.fastdrags.com/fast-rules

https://www.facebook.com/FASTRacingSeries

Now, there are some sticky street legal tires. These will hook up MUCH better than the hard compound street tires. Nitto makes some popular sticky street tires. But, I think Mickey Thompson has the best selection. Obviously, the softer the compound, the fewer street miles you can get from a set. 

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/wheels-tires/dot-drag-radials-101-what-you-need-to-know-about-drag-radials/

Very impressive times. But once again, how much power are those cars making? I bet not more than 500, if even that.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 05, 2018, 05:17:36 PM
" Very impressive times. But once again, how much power are those cars making? I bet not more than 500, if even that."

Don't guess I understand the purpose of this statement. Please explain. ???

I personally think a high 9 sec 1/4 mile time on HARD NARROW BIAS PLY TIRES, is a TREMENDOUS accomplishment.

This calculator estimates the power needed to run a 9.98 in a 3300lb car is just over 656hp. I have no idea how accurate this is. I'll post results from other calculators.

https://www.calculator.net/engine-horsepower-calculator.html?v1weight=3300&v1weightunit=pound&v1time=9.98&v1timeunit=second&calctype=et&x=73&y=22#et

This calculator agrees on 656hp. So, I assume it uses the same formula to calculate hp.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

Now, if car + driver weight is more than 3300lbs, the result will be a higher number.

This one comes at it a little differently, but also says 656hp will propel a 3300 lb car to 9.90's ET.

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/racing-calculators/
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: nas t eh on September 05, 2018, 06:59:26 PM
It’s not that hard,
Ported 300-320cfm aluminum heads, Road Paver or equivalent cam, single plane intake, big enough carb, free flowing exhaust, 461ci short block that can handle 600+HP. Enough cooling,

5-600HP very streetable and pump gas friendly. The more ci you have the easier and tamer it gets to have 500+HP. But 455-461ci is certainly enough.

There are specific parts that are cheaper and or a little better than the rest, there are some brands of certain parts to stay away from.

“Old School”has given great places to buy from and great advice. He is always very detailed and helpful.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 05, 2018, 07:19:23 PM
The Owner has no intention of Drag Racing at the drag strip from what I read.
So Drag Slicks are not being used.
Its a Street car & he wants to daily drive it and use No octane Booster.
Means Modern day 15's to 20's tires and rims.
Likely Road race Pro Tour layout & suspension.
He wants to play with modern Musclecars on the road highways.
Be Roll Racing or stomping on the gas at 55 -100 mph.

Try & Do what modern day Corvettes do & Vipers when they were still built new.

Need 600 Hp from what I read.

Can pick from many other combos.
No guarantees.

What has to be done is all the engine Race Math.
Select the right Heads.
Right Camshaft profile.
Can design the camshaft yourself with knowledge.
Run engine simulations.
Run Pipe Max.

Modern Performance cars pretty much gave up on Normal aspirated power.
376 cubic inches or so & up to 1,000 Hp had on Pump gas 93 octane with Boost.
The Dodge Viper was the last to make stellar N/A Power on Pump gas. Did it so well it spanked the New at the time C7 Z06 Supercharged Corvette Street Racing Live on GM's own Website.
WE CALL IT THE BIG RACE IN THE CORVETTE WORLD.
0-170 RUNS.
2011 DODGE VIPER BONE STOCK WON 7 TIMES IN A ROW.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 05, 2018, 09:46:11 PM
Thank you all for your amazingly helpful and detailed responses.....your info is amazingly valuable!
I definitely do intend to go to the drag strip quite often but you are definitely correct about the street stomping and playing with modern muscle cars...I did so tonight in fact....it's not a daily driver, it's just go enjoy and hot rod around as well as go with my buddies to the track....the places to buy and race calculators are awesome!

Im definitely looking for that do my own research and info on what cam I need....I'm seeing after some of that research the cam butler suggested I put in the original parts post is to small and I need something bigger and more aggressive....what is the road paver cam?

I do in fact have PTFB front comp suspension..still have stock leafs in the rear
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 05, 2018, 10:03:02 PM
http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1817
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 05, 2018, 10:06:13 PM
You have to decide how many cubic inches you want.
Rpm limit set.

Toughest by far to beat are modern LSX & Dodge.
That NSX.
Tesla Roadster.
Teslas P30.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 05, 2018, 10:13:33 PM
The Longer the Crank stroke the more cubic inches the Greater the Demand for Cylinder head airflow becomes.

380-450 cfm heads common place today BBC.
Some LSX.

Becomes a money game.
Big Money.

400-455 Affordable.

Boost also gets it done affordable.
Why LS took Off Race.
Turbo Boost easy for them and Ford.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 06, 2018, 12:27:49 AM
"...you are definitely correct about the street stomping and playing with modern muscle cars..."


With 500+ hp & around 600 torque, you'll NEED sticky rear tires. Hard compound street tires will be very dangerous, even when "stomping" from a roll !!! I tried to do a little street testing one time, with only about 400hp/500 torque. The car was my 12 sec '69 GTO bracket racer. Just had some hard street tires on it & 3.73 gears. I thought punching it from a roll would work. WRONG ! Rear immediately broke loose and began to fishtail all over the road--zero traction. Engine quickly hit the rev limiter, which was set at 5500 rpm, because of stock cast rods. I never tried that again. Did all later road testing with drag tires.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 06, 2018, 08:36:27 AM
If caught in the rain with slicks you have to stop immediately.
 
Drag Radials a little better in the rain but not much.
Limited to 60 mph light footed in rain.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Skip Fix on September 06, 2018, 04:48:14 PM
My 455 0.030 motor will do it. 320 cfm KRE CNC ported 72cc round port E heads Ultradyne lobe HFT 296/304 239/247 @ 0.050 on a 112 LS IC 108. Lunati or Bullet have these lobes1.65 Harland Sharp rockers(actual ratio 1.72). Dish Ross pistons from SD giving 10.25 CR. SCAT rods 0.010 455 crank. Torker II -had to be welded to match the taller KRE ports. Holley 850 DP jetted one size leaner than from Holley. 2" Hooker Super Comps into a Dr. Gas X 3" crossover, 3" Ultraflows, 3" Torque Tech mufflers. Good air and weighing 3750lbs and slicks runs 10.90s @ 124. A little heavier and M/T drag DOT radials 11.50@ 118 all day long in Texas heat.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 06, 2018, 09:51:36 PM
Right now I have 255/50 nitto InVo's.

Skip....that's exactly the numbers I'm looking for! Only differences is I have the 87cc heads and will have the 461...where did you buy your cam from?
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 07, 2018, 06:49:17 AM
Here is the UD master lobe list on the Bullet site.

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html

Looks like the H15 & H12 may be the lobes mentioned. They'll grind it with any LSA you want.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Skip Fix on September 07, 2018, 02:24:00 PM
I got mine from Lunati as Harold Brookshire(old owner of UD) was still there and I do not think Bullet had the lobes. I have since gotten UD lobe cam from Bullet.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: prostreet64 on September 07, 2018, 06:35:28 PM
Just to add my 2cents to the street traction debate. My 79 in the sig makes about 400 rwhp. I have adjustable shocks front and rear, assassin bars, the suspension loose up front to help weight transfer, and I have M/T 275-60X15 drag radials. On the street there is no traction whatsoever in 1st gear, from a roll or not. If I bring the speed up in 1st to about 30mph, shift to 2nd and then stab it, the tires will usually still spin a little and the rearend wash out before everything hooks up. Granted the 3.73 gears are a factor but 500 rwhp or more on the street, will take a lot of suspension work to even come close to hooking up even in 2nd gear. The Factory Stock and F.A.S.T. guys do some amazing things to run the #s they do on street tires, but a prepped track makes a huge difference. I have no trouble with traction at the track with 60' times in the low 1.70s
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 07, 2018, 06:46:25 PM
this car has 540 hp 610 tq. street driven 461 (400 with a 4.250 stroke crank) out of the box E heads 87cc with new springs, hydraulic roller cam 230/236@.50, yes it can fry the tires at will but is not dangerous (unless the driver gets stupid).

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14938201_193999424385289_2264069595217299328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e276d7def07d33f943ac8548b27bbf7f&oe=5BEE2859)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 07, 2018, 06:50:00 PM
here is the engine, PTFB shaker scoop working, in this pic it has RARE exhaust manifolds that were used for the first 5 years now it has a set of Tribal Tubes Tri-Ys and oval exhaust.

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41073129_565397173912177_3169420955160150016_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=75d47f2df6efed68c65ef023234b81e0&oe=5C2C0914)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 07, 2018, 10:16:10 PM
It's the Hardest car to build.
A dual purpose car for Road Race and Drag Race.

Compromises.
Drag Radiala are made for straight line action.
Road Race tires will not work for drag.
Has to be done on a M+S Street tire.

Huge torque its near impossible to get the power down clean.
Need Horse Power to win races.
Money is always a factor.

Comes down to camshaft timing.
Eany Mini Mino Moe typical done will not work.
Have to do the actual race engine Math.
I know it.

Need a tall 1st gear in the trans.
Muncie 4 speed is best.
Turbo 400.
No overdrive.
Let the engine Rev.
6500 -7000+.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 07, 2018, 10:35:41 PM
The Big difference is racing on the street.
Has to handle at high speeds over 140.
Not bottom out and smash the exhaust headers flat.
Have to hook up fast and clean on dirty roads.
Tire spin and you lost.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 08, 2018, 12:09:18 AM
this car has 540 hp 610 tq. street driven 461 (400 with a 4.250 stroke crank) out of the box E heads 87cc with new springs, hydraulic roller cam 230/236@.50, yes it can fry the tires at will but is not dangerous (unless the driver gets stupid).

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14938201_193999424385289_2264069595217299328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e276d7def07d33f943ac8548b27bbf7f&oe=5BEE2859)

Exactly what I'm looking for Dave!  My car is even silver ;)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 08, 2018, 05:45:43 AM
that engine uses a Torquer2 but you also could use a Kaufman Northwind intake it is on par with the Victor but only about 1/2" taller than stock.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:14:13 AM
Not to Knock anyone down I am posting a few Vids to show all what they are up against in the real world.
Its How Fast they have become.

The Very Best Pro Tour is not enough.

Coming Next.



Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:15:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-YtwWIMAeY
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:19:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3U85Jro454
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:23:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHzYNaSwej0
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:25:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rop0TulJSto
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:27:07 AM
All of the the Main Stream Combinations sold by all Pontiac Engine Builders Will Fail.

There is No Such Thing as Safe Zone Street Racing as You Can See.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:35:25 AM
You do not have to go there of course.

But if you want to you must realize all the past combinations were sold to generate mainstream money income for the Builders.

To Beat a Race Car On the Street you can only do it one way.

Build a Race car & Put it on the street.
License plate makes it street legal.
Also need working headlights to see at night.

This is the World I have know since I was 17 years old.
Going on 49 now.
Man they have gotten fast.

As soon as you think safe zone you lost already.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:36:22 AM
You do not have to go there of course.

But if you want to you must realize all the past combinations were sold to generate mainstream money income for the Builders.

To Beat a Race Car On the Street you can only do it one way.

Build a Race car & Put it on the street.
License plate makes it street legal.
Also need working headlights to see at night.

This is the World I have know since I was 17 years old.
Going on 49 now.
Man they have gotten fast.

As soon as you think safe zone you lost already.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:48:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSd1aZHqMTg

One more Guys.

THE BIG RACE.

It Turned the Corvette world upside down.
Was not even a Hellcat.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 06:51:33 AM
I have a combination of my own that works in my 1970 Trans Am.

Smoked 9 second drag cars on the street with my T/A.

Most will not like it.
It is 100 % Race Car.

Solution for guys is BOOST.
TURBO CHARGING BOOST.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 08, 2018, 08:04:17 AM
With all the respect & restraint I can muster, at this time:

This last series of posts are extremely unsuited for this thread ! I can only speak for myself, of course. But, I could care less how fast the modern street racing cars are. Racing at 140mph on the street is a VERY dangerous, unintelligent, & in most cases an illegal thing to do. And you'll never have the quickest race car. Those are running over 300mph on the 1000' tracks.

So, again, in my own opinion, I think that if you wanna post this kind of junk on this Pontiac forum you should start your own thread about it. Then those who care about it can read & post on that thread.

One more time, I'll say that this is my own personal opinion, and may not reflect the opinion of others here. And, there is no personal offense meant by what I've said.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 08, 2018, 08:04:44 AM
hey I'll be up in McHenry this week, meet you in Elgin for a Race next Friday night bring that 70 T/A
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 08:23:59 AM
hey I'll be up in McHenry this week, meet you in Elgin for a Race next Friday night bring that 70 T/A
Run on the streets late at night.
It's not your game.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 08:27:13 AM
With all the respect & restraint I can muster, at this time:

This last series of posts are extremely unsuited for this thread ! I can only speak for myself, of course. But, I could care less how fast the modern street racing cars are. Racing at 140mph on the street is a VERY dangerous, unintelligent, & in most cases an illegal thing to do. And you'll never have the quickest race car. Those are running over 300mph on the 1000' tracks.

So, again, in my own opinion, I think that if you wanna post this kind of junk on this Pontiac forum you should start your own thread about it. Then those who care about it can read & post on that thread.

One more time, I'll say that this is my own personal opinion, and may not reflect the opinion of others here. And, there is no personal offense meant by what I've said.
Some of those guys are hitting 200 mph.

This is the same basis of the 1964 Pontiac GTO.
1964 year.
Pontiac started it all.

I cited what is really going on today.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 08, 2018, 08:56:54 AM
bring it big mouth!!  :P
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 08, 2018, 09:15:36 AM
Wow! You guys have some "serious" machines there. And "all" Pontiac power. I love it.
(I think I could've retired 3 times on just one of those machines) :lol:
So what else is out there?

(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/smiley-face-eating-popcorn_zpsunzu3wlr.png) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/smiley-face-eating-popcorn_zpsunzu3wlr.png.html)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 09:54:29 AM
bring it big mouth!!  :P
Stay on the Road Tracks.
Where you belong.
Not going to work on Streets Running Real Fast.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Skip Fix on September 08, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
My motor on a conservative dyno was about 530. Different calculators using weight and MPH at my track runs put it closer to 550-570 HP. I think getting over 500 hp it is going to take some ported heads for most folks. Now I just got a dyno sheet from a'69 Firebird NHRA stocker friend whose non ported and no acid treated heads on a 400 are close to 500 HP-but he's been racing that car for almost 40 years and has a BIG stocker cam in it. His previous RAIV 400 motor ran a 274 @ 0.050 cam!

Those high HP cars usually boosted definitely are fast. Hard to beat boost making your own atmosphere. I've seen many at the Texas Mile and some at the last West Houston Street Car races at the tack in Sealy(owned by Hennessey who builds a lot of high end cars) and even on a prepped track Hellcats ZO6s have a hard time hooking up. Saw a ZO6 smack the wall even breaking  them loose mid track.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 08, 2018, 11:51:35 AM
(I missed this entire page, before posting above) :x
Just gutta say, I agree with Old Skool on this one. Getting a bit off topic from what the OP was lookin for. Don't think he was looking to be "the fastest", Just wanted something above and beyond the norm. We all know how much power these modern computerized marvels are putting out, (on the dyno). And also know it takes more than power to win a race..."especially" on the street. A perfect example, Chiefs Butler built Poncho vs Riches modern Hemi Challenger. I know it was at the track, but the point is, racing to be successful requires the entire package. (Power, traction, driving, and LUCK)

in the old days, we would mark out a !/4 mile, with another 1/4 mile shutdown on a deserted (in the middle of no-where) street, W/O any side streets or driveways entering it, run from a dead stop, to the end. It was fun, even if we were only doing 95-110 MPH. Most times, even cheater slicks didn't help that much. You had to know your cars ability to hook up, to give it that "just right" amount of clutch dumping RPMS, and how much throttle before mashing it, and powerhifting. Those cars had an honest 300-400 flywheel HP. And there were "lots" of up-sets, you wouldn't believe, not only because of driver error, state of tune, ect., but mostly...traction (or lack there of) is the great equalizer. Of course we're talking "drag racing".

This new modern type of "rolling start" racing, on a public highway, doing well over 120 MPH, for 10 miles or more is purely juvenile and insane. And why are they "rolling starting"? Cause the tires won't put the power to the pavement outta the hole. Seems like a waste of money to me, but hey, what do I know. To each his own.
Now if this same "street car" is to be raced on the weekends on a track, for competition reasons, different story all together. Have at it. I don't see a T/A as a drag car anyway, per se, (altho the suspension could be set up to), but more of a road car.
 I like Roger Bolingers T/A and think it is the epitome of  T/A racing. Not sure how it would perform on the street tho.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 01:07:45 PM
(I missed this entire page, before posting above) :x
Just gutta say, I agree with Old Skool on this one. Getting a bit off topic from what the OP was lookin for. Don't think he was looking to be "the fastest", Just wanted something above and beyond the norm. We all know how much power these modern computerized marvels are putting out, (on the dyno). And also know it takes more than power to win a race..."especially" on the street. A perfect example, Chiefs Butler built Poncho vs Riches modern Hemi Challenger. I know it was at the track, but the point is, racing to be successful requires the entire package. (Power, traction, driving, and LUCK)

in the old days, we would mark out a !/4 mile, with another 1/4 mile shutdown on a deserted (in the middle of no-where) street, W/O any side streets or driveways entering it, run from a dead stop, to the end. It was fun, even if we were only doing 95-110 MPH. Most times, even cheater slicks didn't help that much. You had to know your cars ability to hook up, to give it that "just right" amount of clutch dumping RPMS, and how much throttle before mashing it, and powerhifting. Those cars had an honest 300-400 flywheel HP. And there were "lots" of up-sets, you wouldn't believe, not only because of driver error, state of tune, ect., but mostly...traction (or lack there of) is the great equalizer. Of course we're talking "drag racing".

This new modern type of "rolling start" racing, on a public highway, doing well over 120 MPH, for 10 miles or more is purely juvenile and insane. And why are they "rolling starting"? Cause the tires won't put the power to the pavement outta the hole. Seems like a waste of money to me, but hey, what do I know. To each his own.
Now if this same "street car" is to be raced on the weekends on a track, for competition reasons, different story all together. Have at it. I don't see a T/A as a drag car anyway, per se, (altho the suspension could be set up to), but more of a road car.
 I like Roger Bolingers T/A and think it is the epitome of  T/A racing. Not sure how it would perform on the street tho.
All purpose cars are Tough Tajoe.
That is the point.
Biggest setback is all want nice street manners.
It can be done many ways.
Comes down to budget.
Like you stated also Driver skills.
They do run from a dead stop too these modern marvel muslecars.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 01:09:09 PM
Pontiac was ahead of all.
1 st Production Turbo V8 ever.
Then it stopped.

See where it progressed to now.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 08, 2018, 01:48:05 PM
As much as I give Pontiac credit for their 301T, I don't know why they claimed it was the  1st turbocharged production V8. Buick had them beat almost 20 years before.
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2013/04/18/yesterdays-car-of-tomorrow-1962-1963-oldsmobile-jetfire/
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 02:21:59 PM
As much as I give Pontiac credit for their 301T, I don't know why they claimed it was the  1st turbocharged production V8. Buick had them beat almost 20 years before.
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2013/04/18/yesterdays-car-of-tomorrow-1962-1963-oldsmobile-jetfire/
Turbo Fire Rocket Fuel.
Methanol injection Tajoe.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 08, 2018, 02:57:57 PM
LOL. Yeah. That'll supply some boost! :lol:
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 08, 2018, 10:18:42 PM
I was actually at the track last night and saw quite a few modern marvel 1000hp cars...zo6's...hell cats..GtR's....but like Dave gets and old school says...having all that power doesn't always mean a dam thing..1 if you can drive like most of the guys who have them can't and if you just buy them and don't build them who cares....I'm not out to be the fastest drag racer or street racer on earth...just have a fast cars that I can have fun with put down some great times and surprised people...also that it's different and in my opinion way cooler than something I can go buy for 100 grand...those are the coolest until something new comes out but a badass TA that is no joke is priceless and will not get old.....if being the fastest is all it's about come bring whatever you want against my Ducati and I'll give you a head start...I do love the passion for winning and going fast though
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 08, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
https://youtu.be/LXnN2eeD_zk

https://youtu.be/x9KTyW_1fBs

Shout out to DMR performance and Ryan who is helping me with building the stroker we are discussing to get the TA where I want....if you guys need a hot rod guy who knows his stuff in orlando you couldn't find a better dude and has my car running great!

And Dave at PTFB for setting up my suspension with almost all his parts... well will be all his parts when I'm done!

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 08, 2018, 11:22:55 PM
I was actually at the track last night and saw quite a few modern marvel 1000hp cars...zo6's...hell cats..GtR's....but like Dave gets and old school says...having all that power doesn't always mean a dam thing..1 if you can drive like most of the guys who have them can't and if you just buy them and don't build them who cares....I'm not out to be the fastest drag racer or street racer on earth...just have a fast cars that I can have fun with put down some great times and surprised people...also that it's different and in my opinion way cooler than something I can go buy for 100 grand...those are the coolest until something new comes out but a badass TA that is no joke is priceless and will not get old.....if being the fastest is all it's about come bring whatever you want against my Ducati and I'll give you a head start...I do love the passion for winning and going fast though
We are the Last group that knows what a Pontiac V8 is.
The Younger Gen only knows LS.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 09, 2018, 05:53:01 AM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1782211258688248/permalink/2193862434189793/
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 09, 2018, 07:31:29 AM
https://www.facebook.com/Racingfx/videos/230815604252964/
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Skip Fix on September 09, 2018, 09:13:43 AM
If you want to boost a Pontiac Mark at Luhn Performance has some various bracket kits and a lot of good knowledge.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Skip Fix on September 09, 2018, 09:14:46 AM
http://www.luhnperformance.com/
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 10, 2018, 12:38:59 AM
You know what makes a car really  fast?
Money..
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 10, 2018, 08:29:07 AM
You know what makes a car really  fast?
Money..

Haha that's for sure and that's why I posted my original question to find some help with my combination...to get the most out of it within my budget...if I had unlimited funds I would just swap an LS7 in and turbo to the moon....but I don't ha
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 10, 2018, 09:58:32 PM
You know what makes a car really  fast?
Money..

Haha that's for sure and that's why I posted my original question to find some help with my combination...to get the most out of it within my budget...if I had unlimited funds I would just swap an LS7 in and turbo to the moon....but I don't ha

Its actually very affordable Turbocharged LS 5.3 76 mm single Turbo.
Engine is literally Bone stock as long as its healthy and good shape.
700 + Hp on Pump gas.
E85 Fuel about 875 Hp.
Race gas Q16 1,000 + HP.

Seen it done in the race shop I worked at last year.
LS V8 & Mitsubishi EVO & 5.0 Fords.
I was the old man in the shop.
None of the younger guys knew what a Pontiac V8 was.
Assumed Big Chief runs a LS V8 in his Crow GTO.

Showed them pictures & said WTF is that ? Not an LS !.
PONTIAC V8 Power Twin Turbo Cranking out 4,000 HP on 60 + psi Boost Pressure.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 10, 2018, 11:35:35 PM
LS engines are pretty amazing. For the HP you can get , I agree they are affordable, depending on definition of affordable of course.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 11, 2018, 08:36:55 AM
I definitely want to keep this angry bird all Pontiac power....now back to the stroker questions ha...and this may be an odd question....but one thing I wonder is what makes the different choices between the 461 they suggested the other size strokes? 468/472? Would do they suggest the 461?
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 09:19:15 AM
I definitely want to keep this angry bird all Pontiac power....now back to the stroker questions ha...and this may be an odd question....but one thing I wonder is what makes the different choices between the 461 they suggested the other size strokes? 468/472? Would do they suggest the 461?

depends on the bore size, a .030 over 400 with a 4.25 stroker crank makes 461 if you started with a 455 and put the same 4.25 stroke crank in it you would have more cubes
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 09:24:43 AM
I definitely want to keep this angry bird all Pontiac power....now back to the stroker questions ha...and this may be an odd question....but one thing I wonder is what makes the different choices between the 461 they suggested the other size strokes? 468/472? Would do they suggest the 461?
In general larger cubic inch engines produce more torque.
They will not always produce more horsepower without better flowing heads and Much Hotter Cams used.
Race Cams.
Budget is another big factor.
Big High flow heads are expensive.

Many can not drive and get the power down clean with large engines.
Fuel consumption goes up or MPG Drops.

Race math going on.
Can show later with Engine simulations posted by me.

Many more 400s made than 455s.
Stroker 400 popular.
Prefer a 455 Block myself.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 09:27:09 AM
Ideally you want to be able to drop the hammer down.
Hook up immediate with Zero tire spin.
Gone and car handles for intended purpose.

Like a Teslas Roadster or Teslas P30 does.

Hard to do with a Big Engine past 455.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 09:28:32 AM
Easiest way Hotrodder point of view how well a combo works without Racing or Street Racing is how well does it do  Burnouts ?
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 09:30:12 AM
Tires spun you lost the race.
Only way to catch up is huge Boost of Hp on tap.
400- 700 Hp more.
Drag. Street Race.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 10:37:03 AM
Friday night Elgin industrial park  Brian, bring that 9 sec. 70 T/A
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 02:11:26 PM
Friday night Elgin industrial park  Brian, bring that 9 sec. 70 T/A
I set The Street Race Location.
Not You Pro Tour.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 02:12:57 PM
Friday night Elgin industrial park  Brian, bring that 9 sec. 70 T/A
No setup.
No 5.0.
Open Highways.
You crash I am not stopping.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 02:41:25 PM
LOL I called you out "he who has the huevos makes the rules" behind Elgin industries ;-) 11 PM
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 11, 2018, 02:49:14 PM
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/smiley-face-eating-popcorn_zpsunzu3wlr.png) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/smiley-face-eating-popcorn_zpsunzu3wlr.png.html)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 04:53:28 PM
stustria
LOL I called you out "he who has the huevos makes the rules" behind Elgin industries ;-) 11 PM
Real Easy to block off an industrual park for the cops.
Most have 1 way in and out.
You have never street raced.
Road Race only.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 04:56:28 PM
LOL I called you out "he who has the huevos makes the rules" behind Elgin industries ;-) 11 PM
You want to really do it get on Facebook.
Your FB page.
I found it.
Announce.
I will have 2000 Hp waiting
Don't pay they will take your Pro Tour car.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 06:10:40 PM
well now see you just tipped your hand you said "they" will take your car!!!

First off you just threatened me, btw this is the second time you have.
"they" means not you!! so, YOU don't have a 2000hp 70 tube chassis street T/A
I never claimed to have been a street racer, you have.
You want to start some BS on my FB page ??!! you're not as smart as I gave you credit for.
see this is mano a mano not "they" I understand weak people need a back up.
so let's do this , UNION GROVE Friday grudge race.
AGAIN BRING YOUR 70 TA

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 06:27:08 PM
well now see you just tipped your hand you said "they" will take your car!!!

First off you just threatened me, btw this is the second time you have.
"they" means not you!! so, YOU don't have a 2000hp 70 tube chassis street T/A
I never claimed to have been a street racer, you have.
You want to start some BS on my FB page ??!! you're not as smart as I gave you credit for.
see this is mano a mano not "they" I understand weak people need a back up.
so let's do this , UNION GROVE Friday grudge race.
AGAIN BRING YOUR 70 TA

Not playing it your way.
Street Race in the Boondocks 100 miles South of Chicago only.

Nothing but Highways and Cornfields.
My area.

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 06:27:59 PM
well now see you just tipped your hand you said "they" will take your car!!!

First off you just threatened me, btw this is the second time you have.
"they" means not you!! so, YOU don't have a 2000hp 70 tube chassis street T/A
I never claimed to have been a street racer, you have.
You want to start some BS on my FB page ??!! you're not as smart as I gave you credit for.
see this is mano a mano not "they" I understand weak people need a back up.
so let's do this , UNION GROVE Friday grudge race.
AGAIN BRING YOUR 70 TA
I can not Trust You one Bit.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 11, 2018, 06:55:34 PM
I got $200 on T/Aman!
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 07:19:27 PM
I got $200 on T/Aman!
Of course you do.
Make it more.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 07:26:36 PM
well now see you just tipped your hand you said "they" will take your car!!!

First off you just threatened me, btw this is the second time you have.
"they" means not you!! so, YOU don't have a 2000hp 70 tube chassis street T/A
I never claimed to have been a street racer, you have.
You want to start some BS on my FB page ??!! you're not as smart as I gave you credit for.
see this is mano a mano not "they" I understand weak people need a back up.
so let's do this , UNION GROVE Friday grudge race.
AGAIN BRING YOUR 70 TA
Run at 3 Am Monday Morning.
Marked off 1/4.
We Keep going 2 miles Flat out.
Speeds to 180 + mph.
Highway gears.
Give your Pro Tour car a Chance.
Know a Road 20 miles long.
Can hit ultra high speeds safe.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 07:37:41 PM
here's my race car

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41552535_528889984250782_3342767467314282496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d515739384c2bbdedd63286304147b19&oe=5C28CC3B)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 07:39:01 PM
let's see that 70 TA lol
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 11, 2018, 07:43:28 PM
here's my race car

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41552535_528889984250782_3342767467314282496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d515739384c2bbdedd63286304147b19&oe=5C28CC3B)

Come on now, ya gotta at least give him a chance.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 07:48:09 PM
here's my race car

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41552535_528889984250782_3342767467314282496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d515739384c2bbdedd63286304147b19&oe=5C28CC3B)
Don't like it my way do you.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 11, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
in all honesty I feel bad threads that involve 70RAIV455 ALWAYS take a wrong turn with the BS

    I APOLOGIZE TO THE OP.

I do feel bad for perpetuating this junk, but frankly I thing moderators or admin should control when the thread goes so far into the weeds.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 07:50:00 PM
here's my race car

(https://scontent.fbna1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41552535_528889984250782_3342767467314282496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d515739384c2bbdedd63286304147b19&oe=5C28CC3B)
You should drive that Protour Car from Tennesse to Chicago.
Not pull it with your Pickup.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 07:51:19 PM
in all honesty I feel bad threads that involve 70RAIV455 ALWAYS take a wrong turn with the BS

    I APOLOGIZE TO THE OP.

I do feel bad for perpetuating this junk, but frankly I thing moderators or admin should control when the thread goes so far into the weeds.
You started it.
Business must be bad for you.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 07:52:48 PM
in all honesty I feel bad threads that involve 70RAIV455 ALWAYS take a wrong turn with the BS

    I APOLOGIZE TO THE OP.

I do feel bad for perpetuating this junk, but frankly I thing moderators or admin should control when the thread goes so far into the weeds.
Take it to your Facebook Page.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 08:16:44 PM
https://www.facebook.com/gen2racingsuspension/

Not everyday a supporting Vendor Viscous attacks an individual.
Bad Business Practices.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 11, 2018, 08:35:54 PM
Grow up!
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 70RAIV455 on September 11, 2018, 09:06:00 PM
Grow up!
Have A Nice Day with your friend.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 12, 2018, 06:56:40 AM
sorry guys but I had to push back against him, he ruins every post where someone tries to get valid information, he has single handedly run people off this board, I posted to admin in the lobby, there he finally had to admit "his" car is not his but a "friend's" car that he is trying to enroll in dangerous and illegal street racing.

      AGAIN MY APOLOGIES TO THE OP
 
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: roadking77 on September 12, 2018, 09:01:56 AM
WOW! This sure got off track in a hurry. Looks like this thread should be on lock down. With regrets to the OP of course.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 12, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
no it should not be locked down, I personally called the OP this morning, apologized for the way this turned out, but he was laughing and enjoyed the entertainment, leave it open so that he can at least give his opinion if he wishes to do so.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: nas t eh on September 12, 2018, 11:13:22 AM
What I think is funny, is 70RA claims there is another forum he's on, that he says they let him run it, that he is so knowledgable that "they let him take it over".

While I do think 70 has a lot of knowledge, he is such a bully that he just takes over whether you let him or not. He probably reports on that other forum that we let him run the forum here too.

They probably hate his multiple posts repeating all the same drag racing only stuff just as much as we do. But they all gave up trying to correct his behaviour and just let him go. They decided to hit the ignore button and enjoy life without his posts or i'm sure some chose to leave.

Do we have an ignore button here on TAC? It was funny for a while, now its just getting old.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 12, 2018, 11:36:16 AM
no it should not be locked down, I personally called the OP this morning, apologized for the way this turned out, but he was laughing and enjoyed the entertainment, leave it open so that he can at least give his opinion if he wishes to do so.

Exactly, time to let this run its course and get it all out. Ive been a member here for a long time and not going anywhere. I don't post a lot but when I do I try to make it relevant and to the point, don't need 20+ posts to say whats needed in one. Quality of the post is way more relevant that the posters total post count!
My BS meter was pegged long ago!
I truly feel sorry for the people that are asking legitimate questions and get bombarded with useless crap. Hopefully they can sort thru the posts and see whos really giving useful information.
This is NOT a racing forum and never will be, its for fellow TA enthusiasts who want to discuss THEIR cars and experiences and share their knowledge with others that have the same desire. Theres more to a car than straight line performance, if that's your game let me suggest seeking out a forum that caters to that.
 
 
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 4wheeling79 on September 12, 2018, 12:06:36 PM
79T/Aman there is no need to apologize if anyone needs to apologize it's 70RAIV that should be apologizing to us instead for all his foolishness. I myself have tied into with RAIV in the past and established back then there is no 70TA and the car in that sig picture has since been long gone. It has been seen many times 70RAIV is just a nuisance to the site it's time for him to go along with his street racing BS.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 12, 2018, 12:16:51 PM
On my 455, I made 430hp/ 507 tq. I know that is just shy of 500hp your looking for but the motor is very streetable and stays cool in 115 temps in Vegas. It is in my Lemans convertible (which isn't a race car). I am sure with aluminum heads, more porting, bore , stroked, turbos and little bit of magic pixie dust you can go 500hp and beyond. I used a stock crank, stock intake (it was modified slightly from Kauffman racing) the compression ratio is 10.2:1 . I used a RTR MSD distributor. The cam is a step up from stock profile (very smooth idle) I am using a Holley Sniper EFI. The cylinder heads are -15 heads, rebuilt with big valves. I started off with a bare block and pieced it all together. So far it runs really great. I spent a total of about 5k (a local shop did all the work and did the break in and dyno) here is what it did on the dyno-

Jim

(http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r721/jc73driver/1376BEF8-C586-4501-9B12-A9E25A956CD9_zpsxtlk1ohv.jpeg) (http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/jc73driver/media/1376BEF8-C586-4501-9B12-A9E25A956CD9_zpsxtlk1ohv.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 12, 2018, 12:24:50 PM
Also keep in mind this dyno run was made at a  density altitude of about 5000 ft. Vegas is 2300ft above sea level. In 100 degree temps the air becomes thinner thus making the density much higher. Density Altitude, in a nutshell, is the altitude the motor thinks it is at, and therefore performs as it was at that altitude. The thinner the air, the less power output the motor makes. Forced induction (turbo/ superchargers) can alleviate that, but this is a normally aspirated motor ( non turbo/ supercharged). I believe that if the dyno was done at a lower altitude (closer to sea level) is would pick up a bit more in HP/TQ.

Jim
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 12, 2018, 01:59:44 PM
Very impressive Jim, for an iron headed street motor.  :smile:
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 12, 2018, 11:27:16 PM
Firstly Dave 79T/Aman....thank you so much for the phone call this morning and the advice and chats about my car. Also your parts and setup are awesome and what I will always use on my car...you are a class act and a real resource to all of us and as 4wheeling said you have nothing apologize for. As far the thread going off the rails....I was alittle bit disappointed as I really was looking for answers and advice on this motor build to get to my goals....which I would like to mention I did receive about the intake I should go with the cam options I have and which are best as well as the stroke size. Those technical questions are what I was looking to discuss....70Ra did provide some answers there... but I do agree the street racing only hammering was out of bounds....there is a time and a place for that but it should be obvious the intention of this post was to discuss best option to reach my goals....I do like performance and racing but alittle common sense should be incorporated though it was slightly entertaining.....I would love to keep the conversation going like 737 just did....thank you all as always for your help and advice
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 12, 2018, 11:33:10 PM
Fortunately there is a good Pontiac engine builder here in Vegas,  HBR Competition engines. They did a good job on both motors (400/455) they have rebuilt for me. I have a spare 350 that I want to rebuild myself sometime in the future.
Jim
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 12, 2018, 11:47:04 PM
As 737 has shown your goal is easily attainable with off the shelf parts and some common sense. If this is going in your daily driver you might consider building and tuning it for the crappiest gas you can find. Sure youll loose a little power but when you wind up having to put it in your tank one day at least you can drive home on it without worrying about it detonating itself to death.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 13, 2018, 05:14:31 AM
"...I have a spare 350 that I want to rebuild myself sometime in the future..."

Lookin forward to getting in on that discussion. I've done quite a bit of 350 build research & have taken part in several 350 build threads. Have also had some street & race 350's. Most badmouth the Pontiac 350 & tell the OP to go with a 400, 428 or 455 block. But, 325 to 500 streetable hp is possible, using a 350 block.

There are lots of cheap 350 blocks out there. Some have even junked 'em, because they couldn't sell. That's a shame, since they can be used to make decent power.

In fact, if there is any interest, I'd like to start a 350 block ONLY build thread, where we can discuss the options available for different levels of performance. So, all who'd like to see and/or be involved in such a thread, please say so here.

There may have already been some 350 threads here. Don't know. But I, along with probably many others, prefer a fresh discussion, with all the latest info, rather than just searching for an old thread.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 13, 2018, 09:15:13 AM
My block is a 70 4 bolt main 400 and I definitely don't daily drive it...I just cruise and hot rod it on the weekends with a heavy foot.....I also do like to go to the track (as you can see in the YouTube links) and try to put down good numbers and want to beat some of the newer cars..(obviously don't expect to beat them all) but high 11's would be a dream
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 13, 2018, 10:36:17 AM
"...high 11's would be a dream."


Doesn't have to be just a dream, IF you have a big enuff budget.

A 4.21" or 4.25" stroker, with the right cam & heads, along with a correctly set up car, can run high 11's, with drag tires, & still be very streetable.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 4wheeling79 on September 13, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Yellow1098 I'm with you I have a similar build going on in a 78 I have a 461 9.3 compression, 6X heads ported flow in the low 240 range, Comp HR 230/236 .510/.521, Typhoon single plain I hadn't decided on what headers yet. When I built the engine I just wanted 400hp but now I have changed the build a little and also going back with a 4L80e. I wish I had dyno numbers I could post but still hadn't made it to that point. I hadn't fully decided yet but was considering more cam and maybe a set of ported aluminum heads. I want a drive anywhere car that will run as good as it looks. So when someone says "will this thing move" I can say "oh yea"
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 13, 2018, 07:17:14 PM
Thank you oldskool glad your back on the thread after the craziness haha....those 11's are the goal...working on exactly what your saying....with my aluminum 87cc heads researching which cam and from who get it from now....I can probably handle alittle less "street able" than most guys being it's just my hot rod

4wheeling...we are on the same page exactly...my car sounds like a beast and looks great so just looking to get the performece up to that...checkout those links I posted earlier and ull know what I mean....where did you get your stroker kit? And what cam were you thinking?
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 13, 2018, 07:42:42 PM
Firstly Dave 79T/Aman....thank you so much for the phone call this morning and the advice and chats about my car. Also your parts and setup are awesome and what I will always use on my car...you are a class act and a real resource to all of us and as 4wheeling said you have nothing apologize for. As far the thread going off the rails....I was alittle bit disappointed as I really was looking for answers and advice on this motor build to get to my goals....which I would like to mention I did receive about the intake I should go with the cam options I have and which are best as well as the stroke size. Those technical questions are what I was looking to discuss....70Ra did provide some answers there... but I do agree the street racing only hammering was out of bounds....there is a time and a place for that but it should be obvious the intention of this post was to discuss best option to reach my goals....I do like performance and racing but alittle common sense should be incorporated though it was slightly entertaining.....I would love to keep the conversation going like 737 just did....thank you all as always for your help and advice

Thank you.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 4wheeling79 on September 13, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
The stroker kit I got from Butler Performance I have talked a good bit with Jim Butler about the build. The cam I also got from Jim it is a Comp grind 230/236 .510/.521 112LS part # CCA-3315-3316-HR112
Originally I was ok with just 400hp Jim has assured me they have built this same set up and in house with CNC ported head it makes right at 500hp I do hand porting and have been doing so for 20 plus years so I'm no rookie at it so Jim says it for sure should make 475hp. Now that I have my 79 done with just a bored 400 I want the 78 to be meaner so I'm think of stepping up the cam and a set of ported Edelbrock heads. With a 4L80e, 3.73's and 500+hp should make for a fun ride.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 13, 2018, 10:45:37 PM
"...researching which cam and from who get it from now..."

"...The cam...is a Comp grind 230/236 .510/.521 112LS part # CCA-3315-3316-HR112..."

https://butlerperformance.com/i-25039411-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3315-3316-hr112.html?ref=category:1272239

This Voodoo is a little cheaper.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3210&gid=289

"....I can probably handle alittle less "street able" than most guys being it's just my hot rod..."

The next step up is a 236/242 @ .050. Butler sells one with either a 112° or 114° LSA. They say the 114 gives it a slightly smoother idle & more vac.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29361765-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3316-3317-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

KRE sells a similar cam, with a 112° LSA, under part number HR236.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Cams%20and%20Parts.htm

Some seem to like more lift. For street use, I like less lift, which should put less strain on the entire valve train. But, if you want more lift, some like the OF cam, sold by SD Performance.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1816

If you want a custom, Bullet can grind 'em just about any way you want it.

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/HRlobes.htm

Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 13, 2018, 11:21:13 PM
Thank you....this may sound silly but I'm trying to learn exactly what the cam specs mean....lift? Duration? Alittle expiation for those would be wonderful....I know a bigger cam is needed to get to my Hp goals than what Butler suggested so I am definitely looking to step it up to maybe like the 236/242 one oldskool....I just don't know what those numbers stand for....
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 14, 2018, 08:11:44 AM
Thank you....this may sound silly but I'm trying to learn exactly what the cam specs mean....lift? Duration? Alittle expiation for those would be wonderful....I know a bigger cam is needed to get to my Hp goals than what Butler suggested so I am definitely looking to step it up to maybe like the 236/242 one oldskool....I just don't know what those numbers stand for....

The cam specs are all the cam numbers, such as advertised duration, duration @ .050" lift, max lobe lift, Lobe Seperation Angle (LSA), & overlap.

(1) adv duration is the number of degrees, of a circle, from the time a cam lobe begins to open the valve to the time the lobe closes the valve. Cam companies sometimes use different amounts of lift to measure for adv duration. For example: one company might begin the measurement when the cam lobe has opened, or lifted, the valve .004"off its seat, & end the measurement when the valve lacks .004" from being completely closed. Another cam company might measure it beginning at .006" lift & ending at .006" lift. These 2 methods would give 2 slightly different numbers for advertised duration for the same cam.

(2) duration @ .050" lift is just what it implies. It's how many degrees are required from the point where the lobe has lifted the valve .050" off it's seat, to the point where the valve is .050" from being closed, returning to it's seat. All cam companies will have to take this measurement the same. .050" lift is .050" lift, no matter who measures it. That's why most consider the duration @ .050" lift numbers the most important number to consider when selecting a cam. But, the adv duration can also be important. The "steep ramp" cams use less adv dur, in relationship to the @ .050 lift dur, in order to increase cyl pressure. These cams can really help low compression engines.

(3) Max lobe lift is distance the cam lobe will raise the lifter. To get the valve lift number, you multiply the lobe lift times your rocker arm ratio. For example: If the lobe lift is .300", & you have 1.5:1 ratio rockers, the valve lift is .300 x 1.5, which equals .450. So, you'd say that lobe produces .450 valve lift. Most Pontiac cams specs assume 1.5 ratio rockers. But not all. Since the 041 RAIV cam used 1.65 rockers, some listings for an 041 clone cam will show the valve lift using 1.65 rockers.

(4) LSA is the distance in degrees between the intake lobe centerline & the exhaust lobe centerline. Some race only cams will have a low LSA, like 106° or 108°. Most street cams will have a higher LSA, usually from 110° to 114°. It is said by most that a 114° LSA will provide a slightly smoother idle & more vac. This can be especially helpful if your cam is just slightly bigger than you need. 

https://www.classiccarrestorationclub.com/article/camshaft-lobe-separation-angle-what-does-it-mean/

(5) Overlap is the distance in degrees during which both the intake & exhaust valves of the same cylinder are slightly open. Cams designed for higher RPM use will have more overlap. This is why high rpm racing cams have a nasty sounding idle, and most require more than 1000 rpm in order to idle at all.

Well hey, these articles explain it much better & more accurately than me.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/CamSpecTerms.aspx

http://www.compcams.com/Pages/416/valve-timing-tutorial.aspx
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 14, 2018, 02:40:42 PM
That is wonderful information and explains everything well......the reason I am trying to understand those specs is.... and tell me if I'm wrong....with the 461 and flat top pistons... the cam and intake selection with the heads I have will make the difference in getting me over my hp and torque goal correct?
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 14, 2018, 03:29:31 PM
Yes that's correct, especially the cam choice. Pick the wrong one and no matter how good an engine you have it'll run like a turd.
Don't be afraid to call the cam company's and speak with there techs. They can recommend a cam that fits your needs along with matching springs.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 14, 2018, 04:56:35 PM
In the "good old days", Pontiacs performed best with a dual pattern cam. With now-a-days aftermarket aluminium heads, I don't know if that's the case. (?)
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 79T/Aman on September 14, 2018, 05:46:32 PM
modern heads are not the only factor in single VS dual pattern cam selection.
The engine is an air pump but changing the bore and stroke changes the pumping action even if the CID is the same.
For example a 455 needs more intake than a 400 even though their bores are almost the same the stroke is different and in turn affect piston speed, rod length (rod to stroke ratio) affects this more so in Pontiacs because the rods are all the same length regardless of stroke.
a 455 has a shorter draw time on the intake but draws harder so a good flowing intake is needed the longer the stroke is for a given rod length.
A short stroke has a longer intake draw giving more time to fill the cylinder.
another reason why short strokes do better at high rpm because the draw event is longer it makes up for the increased number of events in a given amount of time.
A long stroke engine  needs big ports and big cams to move as much air as possible in a shorter period of time.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 14, 2018, 06:33:50 PM
"...Don't be afraid to call the cam company's and speak with there techs..."


Not a bad idea to get several opinions. BUT, I'd tend to go with something closer to what Pontiac engine builders recommend, rather than what a cam company employee says. Longtime Pontiac engine builders have usually seen what different cams will do on the dyno, the street, & the strip, in Pontiac engines.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: Bluebandit on September 14, 2018, 06:57:32 PM
"...Don't be afraid to call the cam company's and speak with there techs..."


Not a bad idea to get several opinions. BUT, I'd tend to go with something closer to what Pontiac engine builders recommend, rather than what a cam company employee says. Longtime Pontiac engine builders have usually seen what different cams will do on the dyno, the street, & the strip, in Pontiac engines.

Yes you are correct and I should have said that also. Butler, Kaufman and others that specialize in Pontiacs know what makes them run. Also Cilff Ruggles has done some amazing stuff and posts frequently on the Performance Years site.

Dave brings up a good point too, you are moving more air with 455+ ci and it requires bigger ports and more cam duration to fill those cylinders, what works in a 400 can choke a 455 preventing it from reaching its full potential.

Keep in mind its all a balancing game and all parts much be matched and work together to achieve your hp goal. Trans choice and rear gearing play into this also and must be accounted for.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 14, 2018, 08:47:21 PM
The reason for the dual pattern cam, (so I was under the impression) was the  (iron head) exhaust port is so restrictive compared to the intake. Didn't matter about the cubic inch or bore/stroke ratio, or any other parameters, it was the unbalance of the two. When Valley head service use-ta rework RAIV heads, they opened up the exhaust port to such a degree, they said a single pattern (chevy grind) would work better than a dual pattern cam. Are the exhaust flow numbers on the Edelbrock/Kaufman aluminium heads that much better of a ratio, compared to the iron heads? Just wondering what the modern Pontiac engine builders are finding on the dynos these days.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 14, 2018, 11:03:11 PM
That is exactly what I'm be confused oldskool...the custom cams vs the butler suggested ones....being the one they suggested in my original post seems to be a bit small. I was asking for better options...I think they think I'm trying to more daily drive and only need that 420 hp....when what I want out of the engine is over 500

Bluebandit...the question is what is that balance for the 461? Or would it be for the 400 block I'm starting with?

Finding those Dyno answers would be wonderful...maybe if I ask more to the point questions to Butler it will help...I think they have gotten so big though they tend to give the cookie cutter employee answers sometimes...if that makes sense
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: nas t eh on September 15, 2018, 02:54:26 AM
Are the exhaust flow numbers on the Edelbrock/Kaufman aluminium heads that much better of a ratio, compared to the iron heads? Just wondering what the modern Pontiac engine builders are finding on the dynos these days.

I watched this topic get dissected on PY. Then I looked at the flow numbers on my Butler ported e-head dports and found that my exhaust flow numbers were above the desired ratio compared to the intake flow. So I asked a question over there wondering if my split pattern cam was split in the wrong direction and either needed to be single pattern or have more duration on the intake. The answer from the guys that I think I trust the most, was that the dyno usually still showed that a typical split pattern cam worked very well on ported aluminum headed Pontiacs. No need to go single pattern or reverse pattern even with the high flow exhaust numbers.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: tajoe on September 15, 2018, 09:07:43 AM
Thanks for that info Nasty. It's what I was curious about. I guess like 79T/A mentioned, more to it than port flow ratio.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 15, 2018, 10:06:17 AM
Yeah, as many have said, it's a balancing act. How much bottom end & idle quality are you willing to give up, in order to increase higher rpm horsepower.

Basically a cam can make peak power in the lower rpm range, mid range, or upper range, BUT NOT ALL 3 at the same time.

As you can read on the Butler site, going with a 114° LSA will provide a wider power range. I, and many others, have done this with the famous 041 HFT cam, by using the bleed down Rhoads lifters.

So, this Butler cam MAY be hard to beat, as a compromise between street manners & horsepower.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29361765-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3316-3317-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

The weakest stroker motor shown on the KRE site has 500hp. So, it might be a good idea to ask which cam is used for each power level shown.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Street%20Engines.htm

As for using a single pattern cam, it seems to me that if those were better for most Pontiac engines, Butler & some of the other big name Pontiac shops would recommend them. Seems that most all cams they advertise are dual pattern, with at least 6° more exhaust duration. And they do lots of head porting.

 
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 15, 2018, 10:35:36 AM
"...That is exactly what I'm be confused oldskool...the custom cams vs the butler suggested ones....being the one they suggested in my original post seems to be a bit small. I was asking for better options...I think they think I'm trying to more daily drive and only need that 420 hp....when what I want out of the engine is over 500..."


Well, maybe we should explore the custom cam possibilities. If you don't think the 236/242 @ .050 cam is big enuff, exactly how big would you wanna try ? How about 240/246. Lets see if we can find some of those lobes from the list of Bullet lobes.

Yep, there are more than 30 240° lobes & more than a dozen 246° lobes.

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/HRlobes.htm

Looks like those 240 lobes are available with an advertised duration of from 289° up to 307°, & with different amounts of lift. They'll grind it with any LSA you want. From what Butler has posted, I suggest 114° LSA.

Then, at 242/248 is this 600hp Butler cam. Don't think you'll need a cam this big to make 500hp. But, it's your call.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-29362559-butler-comp-pontiac-custom-grind-billet-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-3317-3318-hr114.html?ref=category:1272239

Then there's this bad boy, from SD Performance.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1817
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: yellow1098 on September 17, 2018, 10:39:52 PM
"The weakest stroker motor shown on the KRE site has 500hp. So, it might be a good idea to ask which cam is used for each power level shown"

I definitely need to give them a call and ask what they think......

I'm definitely going to look into the 240/246 and ask them at butler about its plus and minus....

Thank you so much oldskool and everyone this info is so valuable
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: oldskool on September 18, 2018, 07:37:14 AM
"...I'm definitely going to look into the 240/246 and ask them at butler about its plus and minus..."


The 240/246 are numbers I came up with, as a possible CUSTOM ground cam. I linked the Bullet master lobes list. Butler can order CUSTOM cams, from Comp Cams. They show lobes in 6° increments, beginning with 224° @ .050. But, they mention that they can custom order other lobes. So, if you wanted a 240/246, rather than the 242/248 which they show as their 600hp cam, but had rather buy from Butler, rather than Bullet, I feel sure that Butler could order one for you.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24623512-comp-cams-custom-hydraulic-roller-camshaft-cca-51-000-11.html?ref=category:1272239

I figure they will try to talk you into their 236/242 grind, instead of having to custom order a 240/246. But, I really don't know, for sure.

I don't think 2° would make that much difference. But, 6° should make a noticeable difference. 
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: EspriTA350 on September 19, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
"...I have a spare 350 that I want to rebuild myself sometime in the future..."

Lookin forward to getting in on that discussion. I've done quite a bit of 350 build research & have taken part in several 350 build threads. Have also had some street & race 350's. Most badmouth the Pontiac 350 & tell the OP to go with a 400, 428 or 455 block. But, 325 to 500 streetable hp is possible, using a 350 block.

There are lots of cheap 350 blocks out there. Some have even junked 'em, because they couldn't sell. That's a shame, since they can be used to make decent power.

In fact, if there is any interest, I'd like to start a 350 block ONLY build thread, where we can discuss the options available for different levels of performance. So, all who'd like to see and/or be involved in such a thread, please say so here.

There may have already been some 350 threads here. Don't know. But I, along with probably many others, prefer a fresh discussion, with all the latest info, rather than just searching for an old thread.

I'm very interested in a 350 thread. Was wondering myself why there was one for every motor but that.
Title: Re: Pontiac stroker advice for 500hp...stroke size,cam,intake,heads?
Post by: 737driver on September 20, 2018, 05:46:34 AM
I think a 350 thread would be a great idea. I think they have very good  potential as a performance motor. Ideally I think they would be a great replacement engine for the later 2nd Gen Firebirds with the V6 or 301 motors (or the ones with Chevy engines ). Both 350 engines I have run exceptionally well. Also I see more of them for sale/ available than the 400 or 455.
Jim